Discussion in 'Plugin Development' started by Nijikokun, Aug 3, 2011.
Remove developer tags.
@DrBoweNur I think that everyone on this thread, at this point, has finally agreed that the entire problem lies within the purple tag. And if someone doesn't believe me, look at all the idiots that ask to be a moderator (OOOOOOOOOOH green tag) even though one of the Administrators (maybe Moderator) specifically posted somewhere (either in the rules or a sticky post) that people that ask for a promotion are far less likely to receive it. Having the moderator tag is "extremely elite" because it is so heavily controlled. However, the purple dev tag is now "crap" because there is no moderation of it.
Above all, I truly think that if several prominent figures in the Bukkit community (REAL devs who have really popular plugins) got on this band-wagon, change really will come to the system. And I also think that when Minecraft leaves beta on 11/11/11, Bukkit will too. And during that period of extreme change is the perfect time to change the system. And as far as:
Well, tell that to MLK after he fought his entire life for the rights of minorities. Change comes when people believe in it, and when a thread has over 3k views and is pushing 7 full pages of comments, people really believe in this!
The Civil Rights Movement was such a completely different thing to compare to this. I think its silly to even try to bring it into this.
The fact of the matter, is that it is not plausible to try and judge plugins based off of quality, as people have different ideas of what quality is. Its too much effort for a matter such as this.
Personally, the easiest way to fix it would be removing the tags all together (as @cholo71796 stated)
Its rather extreme, but I feel it would get the job done. The 'developer status' could be limited to Bukkit+ , and nothing more. No special indication that you know how to code plugins, simply the satisfaction in knowing that your plugin is now out there for other people to use.
yeah the submission system could use a few more rules for sure. the problem is that it requires more work on the part of moderators. to actually verify that a new plugin is not a copy of an old one, a person would have to either know every available plugin already, or go searching and comparing features to verify a new plugin is not a copy of an old one. as for bringing back inactive plugins, it would require a mod to actually compare source to verify that something has been changed. with the amount of submissions on a day to day basis, that could eat up a lot of time (and i am not personally going to volunteer to do it so saying someone else should do it instead of me is not an option imo...so hopefully someone will want to do it).
another problem is that telling someone they cant release their work kind of sucks. the only way to get better or make sure it works right is to have people use it and make bug reports. we kind of have this now with the wip and submission forums, which graduate to the release forum and thus, into the database under the 'get plugins' button up top. i guess we are now back to heavier moderation to get from one step to the next though. i dont mind new devs releasing their work at all (even copies and stuff) since its the only way to learn, and sometimes those resurrected inactives are very appreciated too (even with no changes made other than compatibility to the new rb).
so yeah basically heavier moderation between forum releases and 'official' releases that make it into the database seems to be required. as well as some more rules regarding what constitutes a 'plugin developer' compared to a person who is resurrecting or simply practicing programming. on that note i wouldnt mind seeing a more self contained area for n00bs to post their work and hope that people will test it and give feedback, but is cordoned off from the other areas a bit so new end users wont accidentally think they are official. i also wish there was a way to force every single user here to read the basics like 'what is the difference between plugins and client mods' and 'an introduction to search'. maybe a warning somewhere saying 'if you dont read the basics and use search before you post, you will be torn apart by rabid pick elephants with unicorn horns who feed on human flesh, and also you will be relentlessly trolled by everyone else, so think before you post'. (that last one might give this community a reputation as being filled with a bunch of dicks though)
Unfortunately, more and more people are leaning towards the no purple tag idea, and I think I am starting to join this group. Although the concept of the purple tag WAS a really great way to denote plugin devs throughout the community, it has created this giant mess that Bukkit.org is plagued with today. I think that Bukkit+ and simply having educated users know who the "real devs" are is plenty of recognition for plugin devs while keeping little "Purple-tag hungry childen out" (Thus, Bukkit will be cured of PTHC disease ).
Unfortunately that's what happens. Copiers of genuine plugins release them tricking me into thinking they're worth a damn. Then when Bukkit/MC releases a new update they don't update that because the mod developer doesn't really know how to code.
Causes a lot of sad and dumb in that I have to take MORE time in searching for yet another copy that does the same thing.
Based on the kind of posts that you have made, I believe that you are a well educated bukkit server owner who has never made a plugin before (a personal one seeing as you don't have the purple tag).
As a server owner (and a forum user who has posted over 1000 comments!), what do you think about devs not getting a purple tag. If they really make such amazing plugins (think the staples of a large server), then maybe they should just be promoted to the Moderator team. Feedback would be great seeing as almost everyone in this thread is a plugin dev who either has the purple tag or is seeking one.
Not sure if sarcastic but will reply anyways:
Giving recognition for a job well done is a great thing, both in form of word or representation (developer tag). But if you look at the submission thread nowadays and go through the list of plugins accepted you will see that the Bukkit team accepts almost any kind of trash (look at the uCreate and CreativeWorldz plugin threads). Therefore it's not so much as a problem for genuine plugin developers vs. copiers as it is a problem in the submission staff itself who are approving the plugins to be moved to release threads.
But then again, just like in real life, when society implement ranks in civilization people always want to attain the highest one, both through hard work or through bullshit.
Oh but who's going to read that? I'd rather spend my time looking for the button that takes me to the next page
I agree 100%,. I understand there shouldn't be a definition of what plugins can be or cannot be.
I do however agree that there needs to be way more over sight into repeat or even blatant code stealing of plugins.
1) I have been the advocate on the CreativeWorldz thread if you missed the connection .
2)I can't agree more with the social ranks and how to obtain them.
3) That wasn't sarcasm.
I think that a lot of people would do that. Unfortunately, I don't believe that there is a good way to make average users that quite frankly know very little about anything Bukkit related do things properly on the forums. I honestly think that this entire website will ALWAYS be cluttered with [REQ] tags in all of the forums and several will be added on a daily basis. With that said, I think making the [REQ] forum its own forum (instead of a sub-forum of plugin development) will definitely help the problem, but it cannot be solved unless you plan on forcing everyone on bukkit.org to go through a training class to LEARN HOW TO USE A WEBSITE!
To be honest though I think the plugin submission screening staff need to set a higher benchmark for new plugins submitted in that thread. I've seen some VERY atrocious things come out of there. But then again, that's the hard part. How do we determine whether something's useful or useless.
The thing that annoys me the most is a developer who releases something fantastic, then all of a sudden vanishes.
Hahah, same here. I think we've found the root of the problem. Someone should submit a pull request to human brains to add more patience.
Absolutely. For most people, it's not easy to tell them they're doing a shitty job or that there work isn't worth publication. But to set a high standard, someone has to be the bad guy and make heavily subjective judgments of material.
A lot of people in this thread have suggested setting an actual benchmark for plugin submissions (I know a lot of people say a higher benchmark, but honestly, there is none) however no one can come up with a fair one that doesn't exclude new developers that honestly want to start developing. If you have any suggestions for a way to easily moderate new plugins that still includes new devs, this entire thread is all ears!
Earlier in the thread I said that amateur plugin developers need not to submit their plugins. If the community does not want to use them, why should they go through the submission process? Programming can be learned without publishing. I developed several plugins before any release.
Try this one for size:
1. New developer submits plugin
2. Screening process:
-2.1: Check for related plugin -2.1.1: If there's a match, compare features and if they are too similar (60%+) then reject and refer them to other plugin developer for possible fork (if inactive). -2.1.2: If no significant match or if new features are so innovative that it's fantastic, prepare for release.3. If accepted, release and bind the developer to a 1 month support agreement, meaning if they don't offer constant support for the plugin it will be marked as inactive (same system as now)
4. If rejected, repeat steps 1-3.
I think that a new section should be created for new devs who are looking to get into the Bukkit-dev "industry". This section should not be part of the standard releases section and will be designed to help new bukkit devs get off the ground. With this section, moderators can then give the purple tag to "real" plugins that go into the "Get Plugins" area, while devs who have only produced things that are rejected and sent to the training area will not get this tag. This will allow moderators to actually moderate what plugins the general public has to deal with while still letting new programmers flourish.
Who really has the time to screen every new plugin created with such a time consuming process. mods aren't paid to do this, it's all volunteer work. The only way this process could work is if a new team was established with the tag "Plugin Reviewer". Instead of having all Mod privilages, they would only be able to approve plugins so that they could get added to the plugins list. However, I think that the "denied" part of your idea should still be supplemented with my "new devs sandbox" where devs can get feedback from other bukkit devs so that they can get better/more original
EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
If you are unwilling to put in the work to guarantee high Q&A then you shouldn't expect the results to be the same either.
exactly...thats why the faq threads sit on top of numerous posts asking questions that they answered and cry themselves to sleep at night...poor faq threads im gonna go read some now just to keep them company/make them feel like they have a purpose in life
I think that "Q&A" was not what you were looking for . Also, I think that expanding the Moderators team or creating a new mini-class of Plugin Evaluators would really help solve the problem of too much checking. Because honestly, a larger team of people could easily do a thorough evaluation of every submitted plugin without taking all day. PIN (Power In Numbers) - something that the higher-ups in the bukkit team are missing.
yeah thats pretty much exactly what i was getting at in my post. an area where new people can learn, get help, put their work out and have real users test it under real server conditions, but have to shine to get out of that area and into 'release'.
I think that using this idea IN CONJUNCTION WITH much stricter submission rules would MASSIVELY increase the quality of bukkit plugins.
Amen. Na I really was looking for QA (quality assurance)
yeah strict rules to get out of there or wip into submissions/release...but i dont think the n00b area should be super restricted...i think it would self moderate as it requires people to want to test or offer help...so a crap plugin is still a crap plugin and no one will even look at it. actually thinking about it that way, it could be a pretty unforgiving situation, but i think that would really encourage quality from new devs. maybe keeping the purple tags in conjunction with a n00b area which is cordoned off would work. if you can survive in there and your plugin has any merit, you can work your way out, into submissions -> release -> 'get plugins' and then you get a purple tag. it would basically require support from the community for someone to get a tag and for a new plugin to 'make it' at all...where now all we need is a proper thread title.
I think changing the system from "proper thread title" to "community accepted" is a great way to promote plugins to the releases section (promote them from the n00b area) and give people purple tags.
it also lightens the load on mods and lets people keep their illustrious purple tags
People keep linking this to the want of a purple tag...but I honestly haven't seen people ask for it or ask how to get it? Maybe I somehow manage to avoid such posts
Let's see what others think about this idea. And if they really like it, then we can tag some moderators and see if they are on board with this.
@EdTheLoon the only way to get a purple tag is to submit 1 decent or 2 poor plugins (or better) and get them approved. So instead of the spam of people just asking if they can be mods, people slightly alter good plugins, release them as their own, and then get the purple tag
Community acceptance could be as simple as adding a poll to your submission thread until a more adequate solution is found? Edit: Or implemented.
Edit2: @Supersam654 I never actually knew the process on obtaining the tag
I think that this would be a great short-term solution. Maybe when bukkit goes through a lot of changes (when Minecraft leaves beta on 11/11/11), a more permanent solution (see last 10ish posts) could be implemented.
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