BukkitDev is Cursed

Discussion in 'BukkitDev Information and Feedback' started by drtshock, Sep 8, 2014.

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  1. Offline

    Creeoer

    garbagemule
    Hopefully the excess applications don't flood out the ones even nearly qualifed. I know somone going over them could get stressed enough to look over all of those, I just hope they pay attention to each and everyone one with the same attenion span they had on before, and aren't like " Oh god, what's in store for me this time". I mean, I saw people try to act like they're thenewboston reinarncated, and when they're actually assigned something they can barely write a print statement ,turning that 100 man "developer" lisst into a mere 30 or 40 people.
     
  2. Offline

    Onlineids

    Finally unbanned -_- beware of voicing you opinion
     
  3. Offline

    Kainzo

    Perhaps, though I would think that with a community as massive as Minecraft that the "power" wouldn't be held with less than a handful of people. When its your time to step down, step down. There's a flood of people ready to push new blood into a project. I hope if Bukkit does survive this, that there isn't a "team lead" but a large group of users making decisions with no front man.

    We can dream :p
     
  4. Offline

    drtshock Retired Staff

    Kainzo There was a group of people making decisions. EvilSeph never just went and did things, there were always discussions.
     
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  5. Offline

    Padeius Etoh

    Since I was banned for 24 hours I was not able to respond to a number of things on the first page. Based on everything that has gone on since then, I am not going to comment on any of that nor will I be responding to any more posts.

    I have an opinion about what has transpired over the last couple of weeks, I am not in the group that agrees with any of the actions that the former bukkit staff has taken. I am not in the group that supports the misuse of the DMCA process, to prevent an "OPEN SOURCE" community run software project from continuing. I am not in agreement with those who would rather see bukkit die than allow mojang to quietly hold a copyright interest in the whole.

    This thread has been enlightening. Curse as a company took a risk in 2011 and chose to support some guys with this great idea to allow plugins to modify minecraft server behavior. Curse gave those guys some money to pay rent and such, gave them server space, paid for the domain and bandwidth. What has Curse gotten in return, through an agreement with mojang and bukkit leadership, Curse has been allowed to advertise and monetize the websites and domains that bukkit uses. Curse offered updated software and systems to bukkit to help make the processes more efficient, Curse was told "naw we got it, just keep leaving us alone". Curse during this time has supported bukkit with a point allowance for volunteer devs and staff that is transferable into amazon purchases. Curse has been polite enough to not express what that allowance actually was, but based on this thread it appears as though there is a difference from what Curse was allowing and what the bukkit staff was told existed. Bukkit staff was never told Curse had offered updated software, and in fact Curse staff had not had any contact at the express wish of bukkit leadership with that same bukkit leadership for at least a year.

    If any of these facts are wrong and need to be corrected please do so. I would very much like the record to be correct.

    What does curse get from this community in return, they get called out in a thread about how they never did anything for bukkit. I am glad that Curse has had this opportunity to set the record straight with regards to the bukkit/Curse relationship. Bukkit told Curse to stay out of it and they did.

    I would like to take this opportunity to thank Curse for their support and for coming to the rescue of these forums during this difficult time, you guys have shown a professionalism and patience that goes way above and beyond the call of duty.

    Thank You Curse.
     
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  6. Offline

    Jade Retired Staff

    ZeusAllMighty11 and DHLF like this.
  7. Offline

    Jadedcat


    Unless a user feels the need to appeal a temp or perm ban there is not really a need to dicuss it beyond "They violated a rule"
     
  8. Offline

    Jade Retired Staff

    http://forums.bukkit.org/help/terms
    "Each member is given three chances:
    • First offense - Warning.
    • Second offense - Revocation of abused privileges/infraction given out.
    • Third offense - Ban of a length determined by the Administration."
    Ayooo.
     
    JOPHESTUS, lDucks, DSH105 and 5 others like this.
  9. Offline

    Lolmewn Retired Staff

    They're new here, they still have to learn ;)
     
    JOPHESTUS, lDucks, Hoolean and 3 others like this.
  10. Offline

    Jade Retired Staff

    If you're going to moderate and handle a community you should at least read the rules.
     
  11. Offline

    Lolmewn Retired Staff

    Hey I didn't say I disagreed ;D
     
  12. Offline

    Jadedcat



    "While we try to guarantee that every member is given three chances, we reserve the right to make any decision we believe is necessary to address the situation at hand up to and including, but not limited to, banning someone without warning."

    If someone appears to just need some time to cool their temper a 24hr temp ban gives them that time without permanently removing them from the community.

    We did in fact read the rules and made minor changes to loosen them somewhat.

    That line though is left over from the former staff, and does in fact say that a ban of any kind might be applied without warning.
     
  13. Offline

    Onlineids

    Jadedcat So because I voice my opinion I get a ban without warning? If a comment saying f*** curse really offends you that much you are in for a treat. Also I did appeal to the ban as the reasoning was very vague and my post was deleted so I was left with no idea what I was banned for until told a day later.
     
  14. Offline

    DxDy

    Except that saying"f*** curse" does neither constitute constructive criticism, nor contribute anything at all to the discussion ... I can see how Curse would want to keep that out of the forums.
     
  15. Offline

    Jadedcat


    1.) I didn't ban you.
    2.) You were given a 24hr temporary ban for improper behavior for saying
    "@Jade + @mbaxter = @Jadedcat
    Illuminati? I think so....
    PS: Fuck Mojang and Curse"
    3.) I would guess my fellow moderator felt the joke coupled with the random cussing of Mojang and Curse was too much and deserved a temp ban. I am unsure if you were warned first, or not.
    4.) All of those things would need to be taken up with the moderator that gave you the temp ban.


    edited for clarity
     
  16. Offline

    Onlineids

    Jadedcat DxDy Where does it say in the tos that I can't say that? I am not saying it to a specific bukkit member nor is it excessive and if Jade or mbaxter were offended I would gladly say sorry. Jadedcat if you took the joke seriously then man I am truly sorry. It's hard to take up anything with any staff member I was banned with no valid reason stated, my comment was deleted and the staff member didn't leave their name. If you wish to know the actual reasoning for my ban it was not stated as improper behavior but as and I quote "Violating the Terms of Service"
     
  17. Offline

    Jadedcat



    Again. It wasn't me. Not sure why you keep insisting it was. I am not the only moderator, and I was asleep at the time.
     
  18. Offline

    Onlineids

    Jadedcat When do I ever state it was you? You were the only one to respond so the post is directed at you.
     
  19. Offline

    Jadedcat



    " @Jadedcat if you took the joke seriously then man I am truly sorry."

    and

    "@Jadedcat So because I voice my opinion I get a ban without warning?"

    If you mean to address something as a question to the entire staff, just flagging me is not the way to do so.

    I have left a message in the staff room asking for someone with more knowledge of the situation to address your concerns.
     
  20. Offline

    ZachBora

    This thread is a revelation to me. The staff made it seem like curse didn't have time to help when instead they told you not to help, mainly regarding the tools and xenforo version. And I never knew dbo staff were supposed to be paid, maybe the person who received the credits made it seem like he wasn't getting that much.
     
    Padeius Etoh likes this.
  21. Offline

    eyamaz

    Onlineids

    I was the one the gave you the temp ban.

    all

    With the number of personal attacks that have been going on with the current situation, I have issued about eight or nine 24 hour bans with no warnings for some people to cool off. If you were making a joke and were hit in the crossfire, I apologize. I would refrain from using such terminology as "fuck X" in either a joking or non-joking manner for some time.

    I've made a point of stating, though maybe not directly here, that I will not tolerate a destructive personal attack made against anyone be it a former bukkit team member, a random user, or an entity such as Curse or Mojang. Attacks of such nature will get a peaceful time out (24hr) without warning and escalating timeouts for continued assaults.

    The way you articulate your opinion has meaning. Even if you hate something, the ability to discuss it in a rational manner is important for all sides to understand the views of yourself and others.

    The difference between "I hate Curse," and "Fuck Curse," or "I hate you Wolv. Why did you do this?" and "Wolv your a little bitch. Why the fuck did you do this?" are incredible. The former is a direct opinion stated in a way to show ones feelings that usually invites discussion. The latter is a destructive personal attack that typically invites no real meaningful discussion and is meant as either flame bait or to be hurtful to the party it is stated too.

    I'm usually very open of interpretation of various rules, and am known both through FTB, CurseForge, and various Twitch channels I moderate for to being laid back, a joker, and very lax on most enforcement. Destructive personal attacks are not something I have ever been lax about.

    As far as whether anyone believes this type of action would be against the sites own policies, the ToS specifically allows me to use my own judgement to issue what I do. I typically do not act out unless something is reported, or I see it while investigating another report. I tend to trust in the community to do the right thing themselves.

    Now that you all know this,
    Show Spoiler

    have a kitten!
    [​IMG]
     
    Mavhill, Creeoer, SGrayMe and 2 others like this.
  22. Offline

    feildmaster Retired Staff

    We told them not to interfere with the community and support us through what they do best... Maintaining their platforms.

    What they feed us though, after the fact, was that we told them "Never do anything for us." As if that would ever make any sense. They proceed to cover their asses with the response "There must have been miscommunication." How convenient.

    We've been asking them to update BukkitDev for years, in order to provide a better service for everyone. We were told "Yeah, we're working on it" or "It's not very high on the priority list" every time. We asked how the progress on the new software they were working on for years was going, until yesterday I thought it still didn't exist. It apparently is in use by other areas, though if you ask me they just re-skinned the old version.

    Now I pose a question: Why would they upgrade some areas, while leaving other areas alone? Surely when "upgrading" you would want to improve every platform you have to the same service? Because we told them "not to"? When they are the only ones that have access to the servers? Why would we not want our hosts to maintain their servers?

    I'm done with this subject, if ANYONE believes the canned responses that are being said by Curse, I have no more to say to you.
     
    JaguarJo, DSH105, Yodac and 11 others like this.
  23. Offline

    lol768 Retired Staff

    There are two sides to all of this. I have access to a document full of feedback relating to BukkitDev: requesting an API (with a full specification), notifications support, changes required statuses for files, version number support for files etc. A large number of Curse staff (9 when I counted, including kaelten) have had access to this document since 2012 (before jadedcat became involved in Curse AFAIK). To my knowledge, none of this was ever implemented in Trinium (Trinium is the system which BukkitDev has always used). Some of the functionality appears to be present in Elerium (Curse's new system, used for wildstar/FTB/Minecraft) but this is not something that BukkitDev uses and I believe the platform also lacks some of the functionality that we used on BukkitDev.

    lDucks, lukegb and I spent many hours writing our own moderation interface because the one available to us was lacking in so many areas. We wrote our own projects view, we added our own canned messages system, we added a stats system. We implemented a system to require projects to have files submitted.

    <@lukegb> we had our own tooling built on top of CurseForge for accelerating the approvals process by automatically detecting common issues
    <@lukegb> the tooling stuff was spearheaded by lol768 and based on a large part on some of the scraping stuff in tools.bukkit.org

    We had no API to use and had to page-scrape to get any meaningful data out of the application. We had to work around fundamentally broken parts of Trinium (e.g. teams system & moderation of teams, log page sorting/filtering) and the lack of flexibility with canned messages, automated PMs etc. The approval queue took minutes to load and you had to reload it every time you reviewed a project.

    It's a shame, since Elerium looked to be a useful platform. From my understanding, it's entirely rewritten in C# (w/ what looks like ASP.Net MVC), using a new CMS (Cobalt) vs what I believe was Python for the old system. The JavaScript source suggests the development team have added the ability to set canned messages for project rejections, better bulk moderation and a lot more features. I provided feedback while the system was in development for http://minecraft.curseforge.com and it's sad that it was never used for BukkitDev.
     
    JaguarJo, lDucks, DSH105 and 9 others like this.
  24. Offline

    Onlineids

    eyamaz The fact that you cannot count how many tempbans you have given stating it as "eight or nine" worries me. Warnings are there for a reason, if you had messaged me saying my behavior was inappropriate and to stop I gladly would have. However, you decided to issue "eight or nine" bans without any warning whatsoever.
     
    justcool393 likes this.
  25. Offline

    Kainzo

    Speaking of, I had my signature editing rights removed without warning, can I get that back? :p
    It doesn't take a Xenforo version update to do right by your community and be transparent about how things are going. Xenforo version also has nothing to do with DBO queue times.

    It's sad to see people react the way they did but I can't say I'd do anything different considering the circumstances. Communication is key to success in anything and it looks like there was an extreme lack of it for whatever reason.
     
  26. Offline

    Jadedcat


    Former Staff want to weigh in on the appeal? We don't like overturning previous decisions without a reason.
     
  27. Offline

    ZeldoKavira Administrator Curse

    Let me stop this right here. If you want to continue this conversation please do so in a PM to eyamaz. Lets bring the thread back to on-topic posts please.
     
  28. Offline

    Kaelten Administrator Curse

    Going forward I'll make sure a non ban warning is issued except for repeat offenders and spammers. My personal apologies to you and anyone who's felt they've been mistreated by our efforts here.

    I fully admit that in 2011 we had some issues that resulted out in development issues on the old platform.

    The new platform was started sometime after that and was quietly worked until late last year when the call for public feedback went out. During this time the old platform was indeed down prioritized, and only critical changes were worked on so that Elerium could move forward.

    Elerium launched earlier this year. First targeting new communities. Wildstar and Kerbal Space Program where the first. This allowed us not to have an issue with features missing etc that'd be caused by taking an active community that used the features that are not present yet in Elerium.

    All communities will eventually be migrated over, but won't be done until the features they use are appropriately supported on the new platform. I spoke to TnT earlier this year so that he'd know we were working on it and would be visiting the subject of migrating DBO over later this year as feature parity was reached.

    Your account is generally accurate and one of the better I've seen. As I mentioned earlier in this post the issues we had pushing Trinium forward eventually cause the project to be put into maintenance mode so that Elerium could be built.

    Elerium is absolutely using the feedback you guys provided, and it is the full intention that this platform will eventually replace all of Trinium including DBO. However, as you indicated it's not ready for that yet.

    I also want to apologize if anyone thinks that we've devalued their contributions to the community over the past many years. That's absolutely not the case. The service you guys have provided is phenomenal undertaking and much appreciated.
     
    lDucks, DSH105, Creeoer and 7 others like this.
  29. Offline

    Onlineids

    I appreciate that

    BlizzardFyre My ban wasn't lifted... I just served it out

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
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  30. Offline

    Acharige

    Then why is it called "Curse"? ;)

    Offtopic:

    Show Spoiler

    I honestly prefer the old staff/administrators (non-curse) better. Sure some are fine, other's I dislike, and I'm not going to bring it to the forums. If I could be an adminstrator, I would change the way some things that are ran.
     
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