Bukkit: The Next Chapter

Discussion in 'Bukkit News' started by EvilSeph, Feb 28, 2012.

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    What follows is a written account of Bukkit's story. If you'd rather know what the big news is, skip to the bottom. However, we'd appreciate it if you read through our entire story as it gives us an opportunity to show appreciation and give thanks to the many people, groups and companies that helped us throughout our adventure.

    When we started up Bukkit in December of 2010, we decided we wanted to do things right. Right from the beginning we wanted to be sure we were bringing about a positive change to Minecraft, one that Mojang themselves would approve of. To that end, we set up a meeting with Mojang to get a feel for their opinions on our project and make sure we weren't doing anything they didn't like. The gist of the meeting was that Mojang "liked what we were doing" but not how we had to go about doing things. Unfortunately, we both knew that we had no alternatives, so we continued along - albeit now with the reassurance that our project would most likely not be shut down any time in the future. We decided to create Bukkit to provide the Minecraft community with better tools to manage and extend their server, but our ultimate goal has always been to give the Minecraft community what it needed and wanted to make our favourite game even more enjoyable and being able to do so in an official capacity is our dream.

    Shortly after the launch of Bukkit, after I had posted an innocent announcement to get developers interested in Bukkit, our project exploded with activity. While I had anticipated developer interest and had planned for such, the added interest from the community as a whole was simply overwhelming. So much so that it had begun to put a strain on my dedicated server and actually was pushing it to the point of hardware failure. Luckily, it was around this time that Curse approached us and offered to set-up a temporary Amazon EC2 instance while they purchased new servers for our use. Unfortunately, the Amazon EC2 instance also could not keep up with the demand and was proving to be too costly. So, we asked around for help and Multiplay's Steve Hartland put us on one of their boxes free of charge while we waited for new servers to be purchased and delivered.

    One of the goals of the Bukkit project, or maybe just my personal goal, was to solve what I felt was a big problem within the Minecraft community: it was largely impossible for someone new to Minecraft to discover the unlimited potential of Minecraft modding. Not only would they have to deal with unwieldy and clunky forums, but there was also no central place for sharing your work. In answer to this problem, we endeavoured to create a new service dubbed Fill which we hoped would address all the needs of the community but were unable to gain any ground. We were simply not experienced enough to run something of this magnitude nor did we have the resources to pull it off. One day we were discussing the idea of Fill and our desire to provide a central download solution for the modding community and the WoW players on the team brought up Curse and the success they've had with WoWAce. At that point it all came together, not only did Curse have the resources to pull off something as large as we were envisioning in Fill, but they had the success, experience and scalable software with WoWAce to do so. With that, it was clear to everyone that Curse was the best route to take and dev.bukkit.org was born.

    When news broke out about Mojang organising a Minecon, the entire community was alight with excitement and anticipation. Even today, I still find the sheer dedication from the fans unbelievable and overwhelming. Though we were also excited about Minecon, there was no way we would be able to go since Bukkit is an open source, free project. Much to our surprise, though, Curse had other plans in mind. They decided to fly us over, cover our tickets and accommodation, host us in their booth and setup a panel for us. I've never met a company that cares more about gaming than Curse: when the possibility of their supporting the Bukkit project first came up, we were all blown away. Curse wanted to throw themselves behind our project. They wanted to provide us with the support and resources we needed to continue functioning, no questions asked and their desire to send us to Minecon further reinforced this opinion we had of them. Thanks to their support, we were able to go to Minecon, have a great time and put together a panel filled with our fans, as well as sneak off to a secret meeting with Mojang.

    Back in December of last year, my team and I were invited to Stockholm, Sweden by Mojang to discuss the future of Minecraft - and most importantly the future of Minecraft modding and the official Minecraft modding API. Having just recently met in Minecon, we mostly knew what to expect but were blown away by Mojang's hospitality and the surreality of actually being in Stockholm with them. Not only were we able to visit the Mojang HQ but we were also given the opportunity to be part of the launch of Cobalt (which was simply fantastic) and got to meet the entire team of talented individuals at Mojang. We spent the majority of our time with Mojang shooting ideas back and forth and getting a taste of what was to come and how we might be able to become involved.

    Which leads me to today. Our meeting at Minecon was just the beginning and after having flown us out to Stockholm to get to know each other, it was clear that the potential to do truly great things together was there and we were eager to explore it. After all, we had already been given a direct line to the Minecraft team, the source code and were actively providing Mojang with (exploit) patches and improvements. The next logical step was to figure out the best way to continue working together, perhaps in a more official and intimate capacity. After careful and lengthy consideration, the best course of action became clear. My team and I had already achieved what we wanted to when we started the Bukkit project: provide server admins with the means to easily customise and run their server and provide developers with an easy to use, properly designed API to bring their insane and cool ideas to life. The next obvious step was to make it more official and with news breaking out that Mojang was interested in developing an official Minecraft API, we knew just how to do that.

    I am extremely pleased and proud to announce that, as of today, the Bukkit team has joined Mojang. When discussing the possibility of a modding API publicly, Mojang was concerned that they would be unable to provide the community with a suitable and powerful enough solution and we honestly feel that our experience building Bukkit will help them do so. Thanks to our work with Bukkit, we have a years worth of experience, failures and lessons to help us develop a proper modding API and intend to do whatever it takes to produce one that satisfies the needs of the community. Now that we have an opportunity to design the official Minecraft API, we intend to make it a suitable replacement for Bukkit, if not a significantly better one, while bukkit.org will remain a community for modders for the foreseeable future.

    Official announcement from Mojang with more information: http://mojang.com


    A big "thank you!" is due for the many sponsors we've had over the life of the project:
    eXophase.com - for hosting the project at the beginning and helping us get off our feet
    Multiplay - especially Steve Hartland
    AllGamer - especially Clinton and Scott
    Our Staff who work tirelessly and thanklessly to keep everything in order
    and, of course, Mojang for giving us a chance, taking us seriously and supporting what we’re doing.

    And to you, our community and our family: thanks for sticking by us through thick and thin, we really would not be where we are today without you.
    jflory7, Acharige, iiHeroo and 88 others like this.
  2. Its sad, we need an open API.
    Avarice likes this.
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    Congratulations on joining Mojang. Can't wait to see you're new avatars :p.

    I'd just like to say thanks to everyone here, especially the core Bukkit team. I've been here since the start and it's amazing to see the progress that this project has made since it began. I'd say that the main reason that Minecraft is so popular is because of all the countless hours that you've put in and I'm glad that you're going to get paid for what you've done (In my opinion - Mojang should supply you each with a nice welcoming Cheque for what you've done for free over the past year :p)

    You've also indirectly taught me/got me interested in a programming language, which since I've taken beyond Bukkit making an android application. I'm also miles ahead in my Technology class at school :p.

    Thanks again and Bon Voyage (To Sweden that is),
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    ^ is exactly the point I was making in my other lengthy post, the only reason this wrapper works as well as it does is due it being open source. Until these things are explained I am unsure what the future is for this wrapper.

    Many of the functions can be seen and we need to see them in order to code around what it has, further more many plugins use custom API that talks with craftbukkit, if everything goes into the dark due to copyright you kiss goodbye all the real developers around here as they will and the server owners will move to spout server. A couple such developers have already started preparing for the transition to spout server.

    Like it or not Spout Server was going to be the next big step above this, and it is being created purely because there is a lot of missing functionality still and overall Bukkit needed to be improved code wise as it still has a lot of methods in it that have been found to be slow and we already know faster ways of doing things that are more reliable so spout server was created in an effort to be like a Bukkit 2.0. Of course It won't be directly related to bukkit I don't think but

    I do know it is being created and I have heard nothing but good things come from the developers who are already testing the development builds.

    Tho this being in Vanilla clients I can't say for sure how much extra bulk will be used due to this. SpoutServer will be backwards compatible with Bukkit apparently, it already is proven to be more stable and faster so I am hardly surprised the good developers that do a lot of the extra events that fail to be added in Bukkit have been made in the form of custom plugin API are all planning to move to Spout server once that is officially released.

    I am already calling Hmod on this, for those who know what Hmod was and what went down with it you should understand what I think will happen here.
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    Ever heard of documentation?
    Avarice likes this.
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    I believe Java Decompilers and MCP can already reveal this code. Using method and class names like "a, aa, b, I" just confuse people.
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    hMod comparisons have no foundation. Did hey0 get hired by Mojang, or did he get bored of Minecraft and moved on dropping his community and all support for hMod in the process? I was there during the hMod transition - the Bukkit team getting hired by Mojang is quite a bit different from them getting bored and dropping the project.

    Four more coders for Minecraft means there is a 200% increase in people coding directly for Minecraft. I think this is being forgotten by many people. On top of that, they have hired the best, most experienced team possible (they worked on hMod, and now Bukkit) to work on the API. Multi-threading and much more can be addressed when you have more devs able to work on the issues.

    All arguments against closed source are moot in my opinion. Minecraft is closed source, and we have came this far with it as the basis for Bukkit and CraftBukkit. If the API is closed source, it will be heavily documented.

    I, for one, am going to give the team and Mojang the opportunity to prove that they can learn from the mistakes they made in the past and far surpass the success they have made with the Bukkit API and CraftBukkit.
    ACStache likes this.
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    Edit: TnT <- He posted before me while I was typing this

    There is also another way of approaching this problem. Perhaps this API can just be an API, and the server software is built below that(aka the server software hooks into the API). That makes it so that the API could be open source, while the server software can be closed source. For example, we will have the API class, asdf, the "plugin" class, example, and the server software class, test. The plugin class with subclass asdf, and create a new kind of asdf. The server software class will also subclass asdf, but be the vanilla version. I actually don't think I explained it so that this makes sense, so it would be nice if someone who could understand this thought could explain it clearer.
  9. TnT man, I've seen your loyalty and support to this forums, I personally haven't see someone as helpful as you. Your loyalty is unbeatable :)
    FTW for you and Craftbukkit

    The story will be much different if mojang picked spout team and hired them. All I can see now is apt trying to get advantage over Bukkit popularity.

    Also its really sad to see most fellow DEV has betrayed. And be on spout side. :(
    Technius and ledhead900 like this.
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    Well that's fair, I said I have no disrespect for them you or the team, I have concerns and I am just bringing up my opinion based on what we currently know.

    If they integrate both Bukkit and Craftbukkit and it remains open source then I think we will have no issues, but that said Mojang have left a bad taste for me great success but still a bad taste.

    If I recall Hmod was not dead a certain someone whom I wont mention here did the best they could to kill it as this was born I was there when it happened I watched it die and I read the final post from Heyo explaining that there was not point in continuing his project due what was going on as this was going to supersede his anyway.

    The way it was executed was shocking, this does not seem to be the case here at least so I apologize for comparing it I still stand by the fact that developers are preparing to move to Spout Server though as that is real and being worked on right now.

    I just want to say and ask these things now as we may not get better time to voice anything, I am truly sorry if it offends the team or you, but please you must understand the implications this will have on existing plugins and those who wish to develop for it.
    Inscrutable and Technius like this.
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    People are just getting ideas over their heads. There WILL be a 1.2 RB, and possibly a 1.3 RB. I've read that 1.2 is coming out tomorrow(or possibly in a few hours). So don't give up hope! The new system will probably be better anyways, and Bukkit is still alive!
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    I don't see anything wrong at all, We have been begging Bukkit to act for a good while now, but personally I just think its a little too late, Some of the stuff I have seen far supersede the event systems we have in place to handle chunk que and things that reduce bandwidth or tick rate. More to the point these changes have been in the pull que for a long time and have gone ignored they would have reduced tick rate usage overall and would have made better use of bandwidth and we could do all of that with closed source the move is not about closed vs open source Imo its about functionality that was missing and was desperately needed for a long time.

    Some of the developers I have spoken with just refuse to use certain event systems and instead wrote there own in the form of a plugin with an API and I know of such one that had completely re wrote chunk send code and it and has ideas that would fix a lot of the plugin compatibility issues but refuses to submit the ideas as they will just be ignored.

    They know that their plugins will die in the move as they rely on Craftbukkit events and custom API's. Further more I don't any amount of documentation can't justify the use of closed source, TNT I think has a moot point about that as Minecraft may be closed source but right now BUKKIT is not closed source we can openly see were it has gone wrong and and we can fork and submit code to be added to fix them. But that is the reason why spout server is being made I have gone on enough about that so I wont mention it anymore.

    Further more Mojang have promised a modding API and the release of the source code and have yet to deliver it was meant to be made as the patch after release, Notch told everyone publicly that it was first priority for when the game was released and that has promise was never delivered. So going as closed source further cements the fact they are stalling to release the source for modding use and it may be a while yet before we ever get it.

    I want to get working proper SP modding to SMP support but at this rate its just not going to happen, If Spout offers a better alternative people are going to take it.

    I am for one well aware of this, its not like Bukkits going to move in the next 24 hours it will take time but I rather have a say then sit idle by and watch mistakes ;)
    Inscrutable likes this.
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    Have to stick my nose in... I've been following this and need to clarify something for most non-developers.

    The terms "Open API" and "Closed API" from a software standpoint are meaningly. They are crap terms thrown around by the open/free software community in attack of closed source software (Note: I'm part of the open source community so I'm very familiar with all the wonderful factions within it and their hate/love for different levels of "open, closed, open core, etc" software). The accepted API definitions are:

    - API - A public interface for communication to the "black box" of the software behind it.
    - Private API - An internal interface that is normally unsafe to call externally
    - Undocumented API - A public interface lacking enough documentation to use or know about.

    And for those attempting to equate this to "open source" or "closed source" to this you're very mistaken. The point of APIs is designed to allow third parties not to care about the code behind it. This is true for open or closed source applications. What makes a good API is one where I shouldn't have to read the code and I can just refer to documentation to explain to me the functionality and the usage. A bad API is under documented, ill-conceived or unnecessarily restrictive.

    Most of Bukkit API (from my view) are decent, but under documented. Javadocs is barely acceptable as it doesn't describe or explain what to expect by its usage causing you to either read the code, blindly bash the code into usage, or find someone else who has written something similar and read their code.

    As for the announcement, I welcome a native modding API that supports server and client support. I'm reaching the limits for what I can do for the small (10 people) minecraft server I work with. My main concern isn't the API itself but more having clear documentation explaining the usage.

    I'll be blunt... To me I could careless if Bukkit developers, Spout developers, or three-headed monkey aliens from mars wrote the API. As long as it is clearly documented and stable we're in a much better state than we are today.

    I'll go back to my coding now.
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    First off, you Bukkit guys are awesome. :p
    Secondly, I'd like to say that you should always plan for the future. By that I mean, yes integrate Bukkit into the official server, but also (while cleaning up dusty functions and subroutines :p) add flexibility for the future, so you don't have to rewrite things many times. And client as well, sort of what the Spout(craft) guys are doing.

    And thanks to the person above me for clearing up terminology for other folks :p
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    TnT = Boss

    Love the Bukkit team and am still confused to why so many people still want what hMod offers when CB offers that and more..
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    They don't you have not been reading, what was said happened a long time ago before this was ever created, what I referenced was the attempts made to get people to move along when hmod was not very well updated anymore namely the big ol argument some of its members got into.

    I wish people would stop taking me the wrong way, I don't hate or dislike the idea I just have concerns over how its going to play out. Esp so when it comes compatibility with existing plugins.

    I loved this I still do but I did not really want this to get into into Mojang's hands enough to say that they own it. I can see why this would be better but I can also see some issues this will cause.

    My other arguments are about the fact we were promised a modding API a long time ago and Mojang have not delivered, Nor was the game released open source as said it would be upon finished product, by all accounts it is finished 1.0 marked its release and it is now officially a finished product buggy or not it is finished and I don't see any source code do you?

    That is your opinion so I will respect that, I have mine and its mainly based around losing the ability to see the mistakes in the code, documents only explain the use and functions it likely will not explain its current flaws and how to improve it.

    This is where closed source will ruin your face, once its all locked down the community can no longer go digging and create third party interfaces to extend functionality and we cannot fork it and create our own improved versions or even just to fix something tiny while we wait for an RB.

    We would end up with no alternative then to just start all over again, another wrapper to wrap a wrapper, and this just adds bulk to the process that we can do right now in just a plugin. This is what I am concerned about among other things such how fast are we going to get things added to the modding API if its in Mojangs hands, would we need to wait for a new MC build or can they simply push tiny fixes every week or so, its more likely we would get stuck with something for a long time then compare that to what we can do already we could just patch it ourselves.

    I think a good example of the battle going is comparing APPLE and ANDROID, on the one side you have the "oh no everything must pass through us and you cannot have source" then on the other side you have "Here is the SDK go nuts"
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    Hold up...lol...Did my post have anything to do with what you have been trying to defend since this post started? I was expressing my feelings for TnT and Bukkit and you read it he wrong way.

    First off, I have bee here since the beginning as well. I used hMod for about a month before Bukkit was announced. hMod died, 'nough said, it's over. Hey0 quit. I have a feeling he might regret it now, but it was his choice.

    You say that Bukkit was going to overpower it anyways, so that's why he quit. That's like saying SpaceBukkit was announced and the McMyAdmin creator quit.. Sorry your argument is invalid. hMod was cool while it lasted.

    Oh and I don't think that Minecraft will ever be open source, thus neither will the server API.. Sucks, yup.
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    Your half right, One of the now Bukkit staff had a argument with Hey0 and he got angry, there was a huge debate in the last days of Hmod and it was him alone that killed it as HeyO basically said "screw you guys you want to take it over be my guest", I'm not saying I want Hmod back its gone I live with it, Bukkit is better.

    What I am saying is that this is how it all started and it was not I was suggesting that Bukkit was going to overpower it though it is a better system I was saying that this particular incident many at the time would have said pre maturely ended it as the thread against hmod basically overthrew it to the point the owner gave up arguing back and today we have Bukkit.

    (note: it was not one of the main admins of Bukkit this individual who wont be named was not even part of the team at the time but just was pushing to get this on its feet but went about it aggressively)

    I fear if this goes closed source the community will push for a new open wrapper and the cycle will repeat, what I was getting at with Spout Server is that it has already started and is has been in the pipeline for a while now, its not as aggressive as what went down with Hmod but it is heading that way none the less and by that I mean if they were working on a wrapper and it does turn out better the community will swing over to that and all of this would be a wasted opportunity and that is why I am arguing the point as want to avoid that if possible and just do this right and proper while we have the biggest chance in MC history to do so.

    Sorry for my confusion but It read as if you did not know why I was referencing Hmod and I figured since I was the only one who referenced it in against Bukkit you were talking to me.
    Inscrutable likes this.
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    I didn't follow the debate, so I wouldn't know.

    Your completely right about SpoutCraft, and I, personally think it will win, in the community, of course. Unless the official API is open source and offers something SpoutCraft does not (beside simotaniois updates with MC), I think people will go with SC. Really sad to see because the Bukkit and Spout guys don't see eye to eye and it's Bukkits fault. Afforess has tried to no avvail.

    We'll see what happens =/

    Edit: I'm on an iPhone app. STUPID AUTOCORRECT!
    Inscrutable likes this.
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    It really is a shame, I love the fact Bukkit is here and all of that and all the work gone into it they have done a good job, but there really is no time left anymore to get these things in the air and that is why I am, if anything can be done to reflect and repair the past with rival groups for the benefit of the entire community now is the only chance they are going to get to do it.

    Not only is there a great deal of people willing to take part but Bukkit is sitting on THE BIGGEST opportunity right now as they have managed to become the team behind the new modding API of Minecraft. I am just trying as hard as I can as personally I have waited and dreamed for a long time, since MC started for this day to come and its finally here and I REALLY don't want them waste this chance, not now, they need to remember that they are no longer just speaking for this community they are now in charge of meeting the demands of the ENTIRE MC community and that is a BIG challenge and they are a small team.

    I am really begging them to hear these words and consider a truce with Afforess and the other talent around here to get involved in the process so that what we come out with at the end of the day meets or exceeds the needs of both the developers and the community as a whole.

    It would be real shame if we finally got a modding API in Minecraft only to have to move on to a new wrapper and not take advantage of it, Its right now we the community have chance to improve it to blend Bukkit and Spouts ideas and other highly skilled developers ideas into this new API that they could all use to make an API that supports both server and client mods hosted on the server that could send the mod to the client, which is something and I think I speak for the entire MC modding community here, have been missing and have yearned for a for REALLY REALLY long time almost since SP modding first started.

    We all love you guys and the work and commitment you have all put into this over the time until now, but please please please consider these words and think deeply.
    Sayshal, Skyve and MsInscrutable like this.
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    Well said :)
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    So from what I'm gathering, there's now three camps of the Minecraft community:

    Bukkit/Mojang- the people who believe that the new Minecraft Server API brought out from the four Bukkit devs + Mojang will prevail and bring about a well documented yet closed source api and the server plugins will continue on with a great helpful development and the community can still voice out what is needed (dev community that is, like the ideas thrown about from various devs finding issues in why their plugin doesn't work turns out to be an issue in Craftbukkit itself, therefor ironing out yet more bugs).

    Spout/Other server API's- The people who believe that since Bukkit has kept a firm position on requiring no client side mods for craftbukkit and the vanilla minecraft client to work, bukkit has since been listed as a dying api that will sooner or later be engulfed into the minecraft api (which it has), while the customized api that allows many more hooks but still requires a custom minecraft client is the better solution. This is where this camp believes all servers will eventually go to since development on a closed source api will prove inefficient to allow devs the ability to just code with proper documentation.

    Unknown camp- The people who really don't know what to think anymore. Bukkit seems like there's a definitely good ending in terms of how this all goes down. Granted, there might be some chaos as plugins that don't update for the new Minecraft API will not see the light of day past 1.2, but then again, there is Spout. Spout who is making a whole new api based on server/client connections and controls of mods and plugins used. All requires a simple spoutclient download and the minecraft player can join any server possible. To be bukkit 1.1 plugin compatible etc.

    Although these three camps exist, I'm still stuck in the third camp. Primarily because I don't see how Spout expects to finish up for a release before the Minecraft API comes out and the current bukkit community really just starts on the new api simply because it's released (as of current writting, the new spout-server is very much in alpha) and yet I'm worried about the future of what will happen between 1.2 release and the future 1.3 release (presuming that if Jeb continues with his quick paced patch releases, means 1.3 in roughly 6 weeks (1.0-1.1 was 2 months almost to the date, while 1.1 to 1.2 is what seems like 6 weeks as of current writing)). Yes craftbukkit plugins will continue working throughout 1.2 (assured by the bukkit devs who are now hired by Mojang), however I'm still just worried as to how much different the coding base will change with 1.2-1.3.

    Will servers be brought back to the early stages of Bukkit? Will high featured plugins like Heroes, WorldEdit, (Yet to be released) Guardian, and many other plugins take a few months to rewrite for the new API and bring about the same features that we left off with before this whole announcement? Or will the api be easy enough that a few changes in the coding require at most a few weeks (2-3) for the core plugins of most servers to update?

    I'm speaking on the grounds of a server admin having released a closed beta of a server in hopes to release publicly yet working with 50+ plugins and almost all of them having been updated for 1.1R5 already. No, I do not have a dev team of my own, as many other servers do not.

    IF anything is wrong with my reasoning here, please feel free to correct me. On the whole however, I am only voicing this out as I feel like the next few months will be hectic for all minecraft communities (except vanilla of course :p). I'm really excited as to what is going to be brought into minecraft, like multi-threading! (finally when it does actually happen).
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    It will be hectic, indeed it will.
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    Hey, First of all, like all the others: Hugh congratz!!!!!
    Now i have little question, i bet ist's been asked already,
    but i worked myself through the First pages of comments And it was really confuesing...
    So i'll just go ahead and ask and hope to get an andere...

    Since mojang is releasing (released) minecraft 1.2 today, will there be a bukkit update in a week or two,
    or is the bukkit Team already working on the official minecraft Server And the people running bukkit servers are damned to wait until the official minecraft Server is useable like a bukkit Server???

    I'd be glad to hear about it, thx
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    Should've read a few posts above yours :p

    Dinnerbone will be done with a CB dev build in the next few hours. An RB could take up to a week or more. After the RB is out, work on the new API will probably start.

    Bukkit will be around for a little while longer :p
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    Do you have a reason to believe notch won't keep his promise?

    This point is now moot. With the mod API becoming official Mojang development there's no separation between changes needed to the client or the server. The new channel API the appeared in v1.1 is likely the first indication.
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    We were supposed to get it at the release of MC. Nope. I said never, but that's a bad word to use. I don't think it will be happening any time soon.
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    Wish you luck, it's nice to hear there will be finally official MC releases without waiting for mc-dev. Still, some clarification about what happens to plugins which are digging deep into minecraft internals (such as orebfuscator, nolagg and many more) would be nice....

    Does this mean mojang will stop obfuscating class files? Because in the opposite case, plugins such as the aforementioned are pretty much screwed up, at least via future "official" API.
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    Were we?

    As far as I know, there have also been no statements from Mojang on the eventual openness of the mod API yet.
    Stone_Tigris likes this.
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    Don Redhorse

    what I really like is that I see some very well positive worded posts which explain a lot of the issues we have atm and which don't see any feedback.

    a lot of the people complain about the trolling of both sides... pro bukkit and against bukkit... but posts which don't troll are very rare from both sides...

    answers to valid questions even more.

    I didn't quote any of those posts and I'm on the blacklist and on the trigger list of a lot of moderators which will shut of any discussion directly...

    so I ask the community to find those posts and read them through... and think about what you heard afterwards and how those valid concern where answered
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    No he is correct, Notch tweeted it prior to 1.0 that when Minecraft was releasing the code open source, But then when he did not deliver, He tweeted that he was going to wait until the modding API was done. Which some of us is just a stalling tactic. Couple this with the promises before that and well you get the picture.

    You have a point about that guys post being moot I was going to mention something but you seemed to have summed that up nicely for me, if I was to add anything to it it would just be that really there are only two sides to be on, Mojang/Bukkit or Spouts, Both support modifiable clients the question on everyone's mind and the reason behind most of my previous arguments is that I don't think we should be having to pick sides.

    Only one team have the ability to bring the best of both sides into one client and that is what we really want to see happen out of this.

    (Not directly related to the quote above me, Please Read I am not trolling)
    I am simply pushing to act that all of us plea the Bukkit team to and the Spout team to put aside each-others qualms take a step back and realize that the entire modding community is counting on them both right now one group is counting on Bukkit and the other group is counting on Spout to release a new wrapper if it all goes pear shaped, I on the other hand feel this is a terrible time to be arguing about what side is better. Yes in previous posts of mine I have sided with one or the other in different respects as both have amazing ideas, however I did so to simply point out that it exists and if we the community do nothing we will further tear apart a community that is already split into various supporters of either party and there is a VERY real threat that we could lose a good dose of decent plugin developers as they end up deciding who's side of the fence they want to code for.

    Now I don't want to see this happen Spout started working on their Server mod a while back to amend certain requests and features that went ignored due to various reasons but mostly the fact Bukkit at THAT point in time were anti custom client to use features. I want to get the word out and clear as this is now simply NOT the case anymore since Bukkit is officially part of Mojang there is no longer a need for a custom client if they both sit down and with each other for the greater good that is both collaborating on a complete overhaul together taking advice from who ever is willing to share it that means having polls and having a git open to take in new code with possibly GOOD features they have not thought about, and essentially UNITE everything they work for into one REALLY good API that is built into the Vanilla client.

    That is what all these arguments about I feel I am not the only one who is thinking along the same thought line, I generally would stay out of their business but not when the stakes are this high. Mojang are giving US the community and I say the community as we all helped make Bukkit and Spout a success the opportunity of a life time Mojang are very kind to acknowledge our existence this is as far as I know a first for Mojang to take outside help into getting modding working properly.

    We shouldn't even be having this argument right now. Not you and I personally but globally arguing about who is better and what client/API is going to win, We should be pushing to bring the two broken sides together. We should as a community be humbled by the fact Mojang is seeking our guidance in this matter of modding and if were mature at all we would all sit down have a chat with BOTH sides and work out a responsible solution that both sides can agree on.

    Otherwise we would have wasted the community BEST shot to make dreams and magic happen that soo many of us have been pushing since... well since we started modding in the first place.

    We all know we want to host mods like Mo's creatures and Industrial craft and others like that on our servers and have client pick this up and download all the sounds and gfx and all of the stuff that is just not practical to stream real time and save it as a mod on the client side that gets loaded when we join the server PER server. In such away that servers that are not using these mods the mods do not activate, we could even have it so these mods can be updated on one site like Curse and then it filters down to the server and the server filters it to client as required.

    That is just an example of some our most wanted desires for this game and it could all become reality if we just all came together as community to help build something truly amazing as ONE, even if that means a limited time agreement that source would be open just to kick start collaboration then people could be selected join in the creation. After the product is finished it could be locked into closed source I think Mojang especially Jeb may be quite open about something like this as its not a permanent arrangement its temporary agreement to those willing to help out so that we can all work on it Notch himself was going to make the source open back when first talk about modding API was going on under some new agreement that he could use the ideas this is now a good time to do it in fact it is a perfect time to request such a thing.

    I don't think either one of us want to claim ownership I am quite sure we all just want to see what I said above take place. If we miss this golden chance we may never get another one quite like it, this is our time to shine and give the people what they have wanted lets not waste it.

    Again EvilSeph I hope your paying attention, I may have said some things that you dislike in other posts but I think we both see there is reason in these words. Pull this off and I will have restored faith in both the community and Mojang once again, Jeb is so far pretty eager and he listen the community, Yourself go thru these posts and I know you read them even if you don't reply. Please do take these messages into consideration there is a whole community counting on it.
    Skyve, Bone008 and Inscrutable like this.
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