Anti Cheat plugin?

Hi,

I am looking for a plugin that can help me with cheaters. I want this plugin to be configurable, though (but not too difficult to configure since I'm new to all of this), because I'm also using another plugin that gives players certain powers. So I want to be able to disable some of the cheat "protections" while keeping others. I already have anti xray installed for example, now I need anti:
-No Fall
-Force field
-Wall climb
-Fly
-Click aimbot
-Arrow aimbot
-Sprint (if possible)
-Radar (if possible)
-High jump
-Fastbreaker (that takes into account enchanted pickaxes if possible)
-Nuker (very important)
-Godmode (VERY important)
-Mob ignore

and any other game breaking hacks I don't know about. The most important feature, though, is that they are configurable so that if the plugin starts kicking people for having enchanted picks, for example, then I can just remove that "protection" or if one of the protections doesn't work then I can disable it and get another plugin to cover that field. I would really appreciate if some of you, more knowledgeable players, could give me a few hints. If you know the plugin well and don't mind explaining a few bits here and there go for it, I'd appreciate it that much more. I'm afraid I don't have much to offer other than a server to play on (and perhaps some benefits on it ) and a like for your posts. I hope that is enough.

Thanks in advance,
-Sniei

 

NoCheatPlus AntiCheat

 

@Sniei You don't need to offer us anything for the supper/help. Its free

I recommend you to use NoCheatPlus: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/nocheatplus/

- NoFall: Fully rewritten check which was made to kill all bypasses that existed for it.
- Force field: Every OP (overpowered) Forcefield will be blocked by NoCheatPlus, however most hackers adapt to our checks now. Means they stay under the limits that NC+ has, so they basically turn their forcefield to a aimbot.
Here a example what will be blocked with NC+:

More about this:
http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/n...field-still-working-after-the-instalation/#c1
http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/anti-forcefield.111895/#post-1431419
http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/nocheatplus/tickets/51-forcefield-aimbot-reach/
- Wall climb: Should be blocked with NoCheatPlus
- Fly: Also blocked. CreativeFly (limit how fast they can fly in creative gamemode) and SurvivalFly
- Click aimbot: Is that a game breaking bug? I mean it just clicks stuff like a normal player also does ;P We planned to add a FastInteract check (maybe) that limits how fast a player can click.
- Arrow aimbot: Not really possible to block instantly because pro player can also aim like this (false positives).
However we have that already in mind: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/nocheatplus/tickets/51-forcefield-aimbot-reach/
- Sprint: Blocked and controllable with NC+
- Radar: We cant do that in NC+ because it would cause compatibility issues with other "Vanish plugins" such as DisguiseCraft or VanishNoPacket. However asofold made a example how a plugin could kill radars: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/playersincubes/pages/old-description/
Its not continued anymore but yea..
- High jump: Blocked with NC+
- Fastbreaker: Blocked with NC+ and enchantments are fully supported here. Our check is also accumulative, which brings you much benefits in case of lag and false positives.
- Nuker: Fully blocked by NC+ (WrongBlock, Frequency, Reach and FastBreak). Suppers Survival and Creative nukers of course.
- Godmode: Every exploit that we found to be used as godmode are blocked in the GodMode check.
- Mob ignore: The server decides what the mobs will attack and what not. So its not possible for the client to modify that. However if you have problems with that then check out your plugins, some such as ModifyWorld can change that behaviour of mobs.

All the other features we have you can find here: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/nocheatplus/pages/documentation/features/

If you have problems then feel free to post a ticket for us.

The config page shouldn't be too hard to understand, if you have experience with the NoCheat config then it shouldn't make any problems for you to configuration NoCheatPlus. If not then take a look at our config page, everything you need to know should be explained there: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/nocheatplus/pages/documentation/configuration/

 

Copyed.

 

Oh wow! I didn't think I'd get such a detailed reply! Thanks a great deal! It warms my heart to see that the bukkit forums are filled with such an awesome community Thanks once more, I will most likely be using NoCheatPlus since it seems to be a great plugin indeed and the video, whoaw xD THANKS!

 

I just copied the links yea but the points I explained word by word with my keyboard ;P

No problem
Please be aware that its not perfect of course so if you need help or support then feel free to make me or asofold. For issues you can always open up new tickets and we take a look at it.

 

There's a pretty lengthy discussion regarding this here.
I should point out that, in the interest of full disclosure, I am the developer of AntiCheat. MyPictures is a maintainer on NoCheatPlus. Obviously, we're going to give you differing opinions about what we think the best solution is (duh), but the only thing you can do to know which one works best for YOU is to give them both a try and pick the one you like. I've said it before but it makes no difference to me if you use my code or not, but I believe strongly that you have to make the decision and not allow people to do it for you. There's other anti-cheating programs out there so I suggest you give 'em all a run (or those that look good to you) and do the thinking yourself

 

Hmmm, I might be a bit biased since MyPictures was so nice making that long post, putting the video in, telling me about each individual feature, what's possible and what isn't. I realize my mistake for asking it in the way I have. I could have considered this more and simply asked for a good anti cheat plugin and then checked each website. One might ask what's the point of this thread anyway. Well I tried to find some good anti cheat plugin and those search engines... I guess I don't know how to use them!

So anyway I'm completely biased towards AntiCheat+ right now (besides it shouldn't make much of a difference is what I understood from the thread h31ix pointed me to), however... My aim is to create a server that is a fun pvp experience and as we all know lag destroys all fun. So which one of the two (seemingly similar in features since I'm trying to block Nodus hackers mainly) is more "lightweight"? I don't mind lag caused by denying hackers their powers but I mean, when nobody is hacking, does it have much impact on the server lag?

So I decided I will report every hacker that successfully hacks on my server to the anti cheating plugin team to help with the effort of making it a better plugin

Thanks all for the responses!!
-Sniei

 

AntiCheat+? :C
Assuming you meant NoCheatPlus, but anyway that's totally fine, either one works in it's own way and is in no way a less valid choice than the other. Just personal preference is all, and as I said your choice doesn't make either of us run away crying. Enjoy

EDIT: Oh, also the post I linked wasn't exactly the one I had in mind when I went looking for it. This is what I actually meant to link, but the other one is just as good of a read. This one is just a comparison of features and is a bit more appropriate to the topic. I've edited my post above to change the link.

 

Yea I meant NoCheat+ xD I know my choice doesn't make you cry xDD If that were the case then I wouldn't tell you what I chose and just say "thanks to everyone" and then leave choosing my own plugin. The reason why I mentioned this is because I'm thinking of this as of like a balance scale. So far its tipping towards NoCheat+ but if AntiCheat is immensly more lightweight compared to NC+ then I think I might go with AntiCheat :S So can you guys (try to do this objectively) tell me which is more lightweight? I think this is the thing that none of those posts ever mentioned.

h31ix and MyPictures
Hmmmm. Have you guys thought of merging the two plugins together into one? O.O That way you could get a one superior product O.O Well, I don't even know anything about java or making plugins or anything so I don't know if that is possible... but.. just a thought, maybe?

EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

 

AntiCheat is smaller and has less code, but it's all dependent on what you're doing. Some things may be faster than NCP, others not. Indeed, I implore you to test it yourself; every server is different.

Merging is possible, but not something I'm interested in, and not something that I think would be beneficial to the community.

 

Competition drives innovation. (assuming it is healthy competition)

 

NoCheatPlus and AntiCheat may do the same thing but they do it on a completely different way. AntiCheat prefers to use the simple ways to check for a hacks while NC+ uses advanced and complicated ones to make sure that the hack is really detected and prevented. For example asofold rewrote the whole NoFall check with xDrapor because some hackers found a way to avoid it and still take no fall damage.

The biggest issue is that both plugins have a complete different structure. h31ix wanted to make a simple AntiHack plugin so he made a own structure that does that but we decided to use that one from NoCheat that was made by Evenprime (since we want to continue NoCheat) . So if we really want to work together then someone of us would have to drop his plugin and join the other or drop both and make a new one. We both think that our plugin is the better one so that's why we have 2 (4 with SafeGuard and NoCheatClassic) NoCheat plugins now.
Its good to have some more coders but its not the only thing you need to have . What we really need is more ideas and testers. If you report a issue clearly enough that we can reproduce then you can count for a fix within 1 or 2 days (if its not a huge one).

However if someone is interested in coding for NC+ he/she can always make pull requests for it on our git-hub: https://github.com/NoCheatPlus/NoCheatPlus

Having 2 plugins that do that same thing is not bad at all. On this way everyone can build his/her own idea without getting disagreement and blame from other team members. If you really want to code in a team then everyone has to agree with the chosen design to avoid disagreement and be happy with the product and progress. If I have to work in a team of 4 members then its hard to decide what to take in and what to let out, that's because everyone thinks different about it. Setting a leader is not always helpful because the leader makes decision that still cause disagreement that comes from other members (makes them unhappy ). Its hard to decide when to agree and when to disagree on an idea that has been made in the team, sometimes its good to follow your idea but its also good to drop your idea and follow the other one.
Some might think now: "Well you always think that your idea is the best so you will never drop it because you're an EGO!". Well if a member really cares about the project then he/she would want to bring in own ideas also to make it better. Lets compare Mac with Windows: Some think that Windows is better to use but some other will disagree and claim that Mac is the better one.

Everyone think different because we are humans and not robots. Its not bad to have a different opinions but it can cause conflicts with other ones which makes it really hard to work together.

If someone says all the time: "Yea implement that" without even listing and thinking about it, means that he/she doesn't care about the project and just wants to get over it.
In short: Working in a team is harder then some may think. Its hard to find good and "compatible" team members that follow the current code style.

AntiCheat --> Be as simple as possible (Simple config and simple check style)
NoCheatPlus --> Be as advanced as possible (complete control with the configuration and hard check style)
As you see both plugins have a completely different goal at the moment, to work together we would have to drop one and follow the other idea/goal or drop both and start over.

Anyways most of those are disabled by default. So NC+ is pretty clean to use with the default configuration. I don't know... Hard to decide if we should drop them or not .

If merging together brings out a better AntiCheat/NoCheatPlus then its indeed beneficial for the community.
AntiCheat and NoCheatPlus are too different to be merged together in one at this point. So I guess its better if everyone goes his own way for the corresponding plugin.


I wouldn't say less code causes less lag its more the false positives that eat much performance. Every event that has to be cancelled will cost some extra performance to be cancelled. So it could get quite heavy if many players spam a lot of hacks or get many false positives (lag, bug, ...). AntiCheat might be a bit less heavy because it kicks/kills people instead of cancelling all the time.
The reason why we don't have that included in NC+ is because we don't want players to get punished for false positives because of bugs in NC+ or lags on the server or client. NCP is fully configurable so if you wish to kick (as AC does) then you can do that in the config without having to change anything in the code.
So if you worry about performance @Sniei then just make sure that no one spams your server with hacks, NC+ already has some high level kicks for checks such as SurvivalFly (kick on VL 1000) and more.
If you want to deny hackers doing their stuff then just use one of those 2 plugins for this job but don't use both together .

Test both out and make decision which one fits your server. As h31ix said your choice doesn't make either of us run away crying.

Anyways someone that is neutral with experience would have to test NoCheatPlus and AntiCheat to show us the differences with performance, false positives, covered checks, ..bla..bla..bla..

 

Well to be honest I am neutral (when I said I'm biased towards NoCheat+ means I will probably test that one out first) and I could do the testing thing since I've never ran a server before and have never had any experience with either plugin. The thing is that the only language I know well (other than English and Polish (and not as well as I would like to)) is html so I won't be of much help with reading codes and stuff but...

I could test and record everything that happens concerning AntiCheat and NoCheat+ and then let you know. I will probably make a thread somewhere on the forums and link it (through a private message for you both). I do think you guys should consider the idea of working together. Perhaps share ideas so that AntiCheat can block hacks that work only on AntiCheat and don't work on NoCheat+ and vice versa. I mean you both have done (well, I am aware that it isn't just you two, I mean both teams and all the other people that took part in each project) a great service to the community by bringing two awesome plugins. Thing is that part of the community only benefits from each of your projects. I mean, if you're not doing this for money then there is no reason for competition (I mean the healthy kind, I can see you compete but you also respect each other and respect the work you've both done) of any kind. I know this may be a lot of work but think about it. If you do plan on continuing on developing each project it would be a great idea to share ideas. Then it will really become just a matter of preference because your plugins will block all the hacks! The hacks that work will work because neither of you have a block for it... but if one of you comes up with an idea then the other will know how to block it too

I know how I must look right now, barging in to the forum, being new to it and all, and already giving advice ^^ I'm sorry if it looks that way but I felt this irresistable urge to write this message. Perhaps some good will come of it?

Well consider it guys and take care.
h31ix MyPictures (so you get the alerts)

-Sniei

P.S.: I'm not saying to share the code xD I know you both code in a different way. I dislike the way some people code html sites too but I do like the final effect sometimes. I reproduce it in my own way sometimes if I really like it. You could just share the idea on how to prevent something from happening.

 

MyPictures I.... don't believe I ever have said anything about bloatware, and my comments on the colour check a while back was stating that it wasn't something I would consider including in my program. I don't believe I've said NCP is bloated or has bloat at any point so please don't put words into my mouth without a proper source

 

Then I misunderstood that comment of you. Sorry if you meant something different with it ;P.
Actually we only keep that colour check because Evenprime made it back with NoCheat. I don't remember if there was a exploit back in that time which allowed you to use colours even without having the right permissions. I have no idea if that check is needed anymore but have nothing to test this at the moment. Also most chat plugins seem to override it anyways...

I fix it now.

@Sniei Well if you have time then why not?
Its just kinda difficult to check the performance part of those plugin with an efficient way. It all depends on server hardware, player amount, called checks, other plugins, ....

Well maybe I could be a bit nice and make some tickets for h31ix about the bugs I know about in AC.... but merging them together is pretty impossible at this point. The plugins are have too much difference to work together.
(btw: asofold is the current leader for NC+, I'm just his background helper that does all the other "exiting" stuff ;P)

 

I think the bloat comment was not necessarily directed against anything, it was just stated that CraftBukkit would not add it because of "too much bloat". In that case having a configurable commend or kicking-level would already mean "bloat" to CraftBukkit, because that are things "never really done right" concerning what different server owners might want.

On that account i could imagine Minecraft adding its own checks for some things, CraftBukkit could then add Events for check failures and let other plugins decide. But the hacking scene is always trying to find bypasses, so it has to be rock solid checks (like calculating "exactly" what the client calculates), to prevent the Minecraft team getting consumed in cat-and-mice with the hackers instead of developing Minecraft. That is why some people are so curious about those announcements stating that Minecraft will do more stuff server-side.

Concerning opinconsoleonly, i just maintain the feature, and it is not expensive to have/maintain. If it makes sense is another thing - it does prevent "ops exploding" because one ops account got hacked or so, it helps people that work with almost vanilla style servers, without constructing complicated ranks. Of course an op could set others to creative-mode, which can also create arbitrary havoc. So considering that commands are logged in vanilla(-cb), this feature could be considered a dinosaur. It's from a time when people were not sure if non-ops could actually op themselves with hacks, though some people might still find it useful, because on their account adding a permissions plugin just to allow virtually everything but opping others for some mods just appears to be "bloat" . The color check is a dinosaur too, i am just too lazy to remove it. Yet it might gain significance again, later on.

Basically in NCP we do not follow a strict paradigm of what "server security" or "server integrity" or "protocol-exploit-blocking" or whatever term would mean and ponder if we are allowed to add a somewhat protective feature or no. My badly maintained tasks list has about 800 lines, so don't come to think that i will add random features without special motivation. Nit-picking about something like opinconsoleonly is not getting us anywhere in terms of a discussion of what anti cheat plugins actually do.

One could make a knowledge base thing, shared by some anti cheat plugin developers, but such costs more time again, while it is is not sure if we gain time on implementation and/or user support for instance. In fact that would come closer to writing a new plugin. Certainly what MyPictures said about joining forces is pretty much right. A hybrid approach would most likely lead to a completely new plugin, though some things actually could be merged. But that would likely lead to a full recode and also would mean more time consumption for maintaining the hybrid structure (simple levels + arbitrary actions with presets for instance) than each dev is currently investing. In total it is really not clear if we will have less work and a better plugin, also the re-coding of checks would take significant amounts of time for the transition, much more than each dev is using right now.

This is where EvenPrime might come in (late though), stating that he was considering writing an anti cheat plugin for the Minecraft plugin API, based on an architecture that allows adding and removing checks, probably ending up in a plugin-architecture (just my guess, given that some checks depend on other checks).

 

Hmmmm... You just gave me an idea xD Well its only hypothetical and I'm probably not going to do anything about it or even ask anyone to do it.. but do you think it would be possible to create a plugin (or something else, a mod or something) that causes more things to become server sided? Would render many hacks impossible D Just a thought
asofold

-Sniei

 

Counter-cheat plugins often attempt to do similar calculations (usually re-modeled or simplified methods), like the fastbreak check of NoCheatPlus or some of its moving checks. Not sure these actually cause much more overhead than native checks would.

I am not sure if one can transport some of the client-side logic to the server side, given that the client is obfuscated too, this is not necessarily much fun to maintain anyway. It would be best applied on packet level somehow (before incoming packets are "accepted"), but i think that is better left to the Minecraft developers, they have the better leverage given the original code and know how. Given that more updates will follow, also bug fix updates and that CraftBukkit decided for that safeguard-thingy, i doubt that anyone really wants to do this .

So i think one has to do with plugins using simplified models for the stuff.

 

Hmmm, I see. Well anyways, I downloaded NoCheat+ to test it and stuff. Only its not working D: I submitted a ticket. Hope someone can help :S
asofold MyPictures

 

I'm not really concerned about what you guys put or don't put in your plugin, I'm just concerned about people putting words in my mouth and telling people that I think something when I really don't. I do make a really conscious effort to say things like "I would assume X thinks the same way in that X" especially when I'm speaking about NCP vs. AC because I don't represent you guys.
It's just stuff like "Also @h31ix thinks that NC+ has bloatware included for some reason" or "makes him think that we are bloatware" that concerns me a bit; I've never said either of those things nor do I actually hold that view.

In any case, we'll have to see where this stuff goes with the mod API. From what you suggested Sniei it sounded like you were suggesting making a mod to push stuff server-side, which seems a bit counter-intuitive, but nonetheless a valid suggestion that people have made before; the problem is you cannot trust the client. Minecraft made that mistake from the very beginning, and continues to pay for it. Anything you use as a mod will (at this stage) severely limit your server's potential players and discourages people from joining, as well as has the potential to be changed by anyone, thus invalidating the server-side push you're suggesting.

 

I'm often "on the go" when I read/write such messages also my English isn't really super PRO good. The reason why I wrote this was because of misunderstanding that text I posted there:

Writing that you "cant classify those 2 as a cheat" and for that reason don't considering to implement those in AntiCheat means to me that those features have nothing to do with cheating overall. So having those in NC+ means for me that you "mark" them as "unneeded bloating/bloatware in NC+" because they don't do anything that is related with cheating/hacking and for that reason those shouldn't be included in a AntiCheat/NoCheat plugin.

What is bloatsoftware? If a program has something that doesn't make any sense to be in there because it does something that it isn't meant to do. For example the Software Nero: Its meant to only burn/manage/copy/erase CDs/DVDs ,... but that's not everything it does now. It includes more features such as an picture viewer, backup maker, network backups, ... and that's called bloatware for me.

So that was actually the full reason why I wrote this thingi there but I removed it since I agreed with your post there.

Most people tend to shout at me that asofold and NeatMonster unpatched everything in NC+ (which is not true of course). I already got to tired from answering all those because only what I get back is disagreement and more shouting about it.
So I would be really happy of some of those could at least agree a bit on my messages but yea...

Again sorry for misunderstanding you at this point, nothing I can say more about that.

 

Well I for one like the opinconsoleonly feature xD That way I can promote a friend of mine to owner with * perms but will know that he won't be able to op himself or anyone else. Sure it doesn't prevent hacking... for now... but I've once been on a server where a guy used force op (some people tell me that doesn't exist, well it existed then, and I even had that program myself (just wanted to deop that guy and ban him lol)) and the guy destroyed the whole server. He completely obliterated it with tnt, removing all faction claims all protections... everything. So if op can only be given through console and some sort of hack like that comes out again... then I'll be safe Better safe than sorry. Btw I actually found that comment (colors, anything but colors) funny although I do think that, however harmless, a hack's still a hack.

Just to drop my two cents' worth ^^ Thanks for all the tips guys! NoCheat+ seems to be working wonderfully as of now. I will test AntiCheat next week and once I get a player base I will also test both for lag. I think I might end up switching it every week or so to see if any hackers are able to bypass it. I will try to get the ones that succeed in hacking on my side (being nice, not banning etc.) so that I can get their software or at least figure out how they did it. Then BAM, you guys get the software and I ban them

Well take care now. I'm going to sleep (late in Poland).

 

I think there is just some translation problems. You did say something like "That would just add bloat" once, in answer to someone third asking something like "Why isnt NCP included into CraftBukkit". Not really worth a discussion, the implications of that announcements about putting more stuff to the server-side have been discussed in other threads already, i have no idea what exactly Mojang people are planning in particular on that account.

MyPictures
I think that "bloat-xy" direction is somewhat misleading .

Could be interesting. The problematic part might be to find configurations for both plugins that match what you want, though one might try a day or so with each at default settings. With enough players online, even few hours or not even one might suffice to get useful timings.

 

Yea... never-mind I cant explain it.

 

asofold
Nah the configs wont be problematic at all. Simply rename the plugin and it should be disabled. If not then ill just download the config and upload it back up later I don't require much configuration anyway, just need admins to be able to get the packet infos and no anti-knockback (I have a class that has the ability to knockback with right click, is it possible to block it for left click but not right click?)

h31ix asofold

So far I've found an issue in both AntiCheat and NC+, AntiCheat doesn't block Timer hack at all (or kick the person or build his violation level or anything). NC+ keeps me from breaking/building anything after a few minutes of playing

EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

 

The timer check is in the code but disabled because it needs a bit more testing. You can compile it yourself with the check to enable it for testing if you like. Rest assured it's being worked on.

 

In fact if it was like that you might file a support ticket (BukkitDev is down right now). I can't really judge it without further information like used versions of NCP / CraftBukkit. What exactly happened / what you have been doing.

What version of NCP are you using? You could check/download from our Jenkins (http://www.nocheatplus.org:8080/job/NoCheatPlus/), build 301 can be downloaded from BukkitDev, it is also shown as "beta". Build 311 seems stable and contains some improvement for the presence of server side lag. Those files are not going through the approval mechanisms at Bukkit of course.

 

asofold I made a ticket but as you said BukkitDev is down. I'm using 1.4.6 R.03 version of bukkit with 311 NC+, I also tried 310, as well as 301. All of them have the same issue. I disabled NC+ and I no longer have the issue so I'm positive its caused by NC+ but it may also be caused by a compatibility issue with Guilds (http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/rp...lans-with-special-abilities-1-4-6-r0-3.64179/) since it modifies attack/defense and gives special abilities and such. I saw in the config file for AntiCheat an option that said "trackpluginevents" or something along those lines which might be why I don't get the issue with AntiCheat. Then again I don't know if NoCheat+ has that option, it might.

h31ix Thanks for the heads up :d That caused me to think that AntiCheat isn't working properly but now further testing proves most other hacks are "blocked" (well, you get kicked for using them, they're not really blocked like NoCheat+ but I'm almost positive that keeps the server from lagging ). Is it possible to make AntiCheat more sensitive to those hacks? Players can still turn on fly hack for a few moments to get from one place to another. I'd like AntiCheat to kick the player quicker. Also, it seems that the kick often crashes the client. Will this happen if a player isn't hacking but simply lagging a lot? Thanks!

Sniei

P.S.: Btw if I sound like I'm not as nice as usual then that's because of my relationship issues. Sorry for that. Can't really control it.

EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

 

Sniei Special abilities provided by plugins such as area attacks and fast bock breaking often conflict with anti cheat plugins. For compatibility with plugins such as mcMMO we have added a compatibility plugin that attempts to pinpoint skills (CompatNoCheatPlus), Guilds is not in yet, and i can't see any source code reference for it, Guilds might be closed source. Reason not to simply exempt all external events is, that there can be serious abuse if no extra protection is provided (mcMMO / insta-breaking skills). I will try to get some information from the Guilds developer(s). Later we might work parts of cncp into NCP for convenience, but it needs some more care than one might think.

So we are stuck with this approach right now.