An update on the Plugin Developer tag system

Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by EvilSeph, Dec 5, 2011.

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  1. Offline

    EvilSeph Retired Staff

    As previously announced, the Plugin Developer tag system had become difficult to maintain and was frozen as a result of this. Since then, we’ve been actively discussing the future of the Plugin Developer tag and, consequently, the Bukkit+ forum.

    We do have a couple of possible systems in mind that will take the place of the Plugin Developer tag and will be making an announcement as soon as we decide on which we feel is best for the community.

    Until that time, we have decided to remove the developer tag from all existing profiles, while still keeping Bukkit+ available and in use. Any developers who have access to the Bukkit+ forum will retain that access and for those of you who don't have access, we'll be providing a way to get access to Bukkit+ provided you are an upstanding member of the community.
     
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    sukosevato

    If you're lazy, just read affores his post. It says it all.

    I would prefer a system like this as well. Now its harder for users to see the difference between someone who is likely to know quite a bit about java etc. and a random minecraft forums troll. You can easily as troll claim to know as much as a developer. And for a user it'll be hard to distinguish. I liked the plugin developer system, you could quite easily see if someone had knowledge or was likely to have knowledge. Sure it wasn't perfect, of the people with a plugin developer tag there might have only been 20-30% that really did have knowledge. But still then i'd only get 80% 'false positives'. If you compare that to the entire community, then now i have to filter through everything which gives 99% 'false positives' Much more work.. I prefer the system affores suggests. Just expand the system, that's a way better solution then removing it.
     
    MuttsNuts and tyzoid like this.
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    mcferson

    Mod Edit: Please stick on topic - Archelaus
     
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    Afforess

    No - the point is to avoid complexity.

    Dead wrong. In fact, you argue my case FOR me. These short lived developers would never proceed beyond amateur rank - which is ideal. If you don't have time to stay for the long haul, you aren't dependable.
    No, no, no! The point of the tag is quick identification. Adding layers of bureaucracy into it will turn the system into molasses. Having time be a key factor makes getting upgraded badges both dead simple for the staff, and ensures short-lived developers do not gain a hard to get rank.
     
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    Don Redhorse

    No, no, no! Time doesn't mean a thing... take a look at how many Plugin Developers don't keep their plugins up.. they coded them 6 month ago.. and the plugin did go inactive 5 month ago.. but they are still plugin developer.

    At least if you just do it by time like you suggested... the rank must be given and taken.. and you should need to proof (in one way or the other) that you deservere it.

    I had a better suggestion in another thread... I know that the above wasn't that good... mainly:

    code a plugin = thanks, nice... move to release
    keep it updated and add features, code another one (perhaps more sophisticated) = thanks, get a tag... move to release
    all plugins inactive or only the non complicated ones = well, thanks, remove tag...

    Add your ranks to it you don't even need to remove the tag... BUT... never should only time be a reason to become a "higher" ranked developer.
     
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    ZachBora

    Well if you haven't noticed the Bukkit team doesn't have the men days to do this sort of job. They'd need to keep tracks of too many people.
     
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    Lolmewn Retired Staff

    Bye bye fancy tag :'(
     
  8. Offline

    M1sT3rM4n

    You can make a fake one and put it in your avatar.
     
  9. Offline

    Lolmewn Retired Staff

    I tried but I don't know how to use gradient on a layer :)
     
  10. Offline

    M1sT3rM4n

    You can't be serious....

    Please Lulzmein, my IQ is low enough already!
     
  11. Offline

    Afforess

    >.>

    Are you WILLFULLY ignoring the content of my posts? I made that point as an argument for a simple system...

    I highly recommend you demand a refund from whatever educational institution you are currently enrolled in or was previously an alumni of.

    Time means everything. You could be Linus Torvalds himself, but if you don't maintain your plugin for more than a week or two, why do you deserve anything beyond the amateur badge?

    Removing the rank is more complexity = bad.
     
  12. Offline

    Lolmewn Retired Staff

    I never use PS, that's why :)
    I can do basic stuff, not crazy H4X with it.
    Anyway, we're getting off-topic :D
     
  13. Offline

    M1sT3rM4n

    Don't you just love bureaucracy? Regulate too much, someone cries. Deregulate, someone else cries.

    WHICH SIDE ARE WE GOING TO TAKE?
     
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    ZachBora

    You don't seem to notice that the current system was already VERY BASIC and didn't need any thought whatsoever, and even THAT was too much for the mods to handle and they removed it. So clearly they don't have time to add your basic system.
    I just think you've got a very big ego Mr. User 42 and can't handle being on the same level as everyone.
     
  15. Offline

    NuclearW

    It is important, however, to remember that this is an intermediate step towards a new system. Personally, I've been rather surprised with the amount of people downright happy that there are no more tags, ignoring that we have stated that we are working on something else.

    Given this, it's entirely possible that such a new system will not rely on tags at all, but we won't know unless we hear more on the subject. (Which is why this sort of discussion is so helpful!)

    This is exactly the conclusion we came to. Because standards had been so lax there were so many people with the tag as such to make it unruly and nigh unto impossible to reign in. We still see the need to identify those of the community who are a cut above, and we are working on it. Again, this is an intermediate step, we had hoped that getting rid of the tag altogether for now rather than leaving the system simply frozen would be a sign that we're doing just that: working on this issue.

    Also, because the tag is no longer there, this allows us to be much more specific in handing out a new tag.

    I'd like to comment on this personally, please keep in mind that for this I respond as myself, not as a part of the bukkit staff.

    Expanding the tag was exactly the change I hoped to see, and while not exactly possible anymore is still something I'm going to try to effect in a new system if I at all can. I agree with you, and I appreciate your comment, although it does seem a bit... heated.

    This is an excellent suggestion, similar to one of the ideas we have been considering. It's entirely possible a system like this will be adopted, you just need to again remember that this recent change is intermediate, and we're hoping to have a new system out to replace the old tag.

    I'd again like to comment personally.

    I've agreed for the most part with your post up to this point, and while I can easily understand why you said this, it seems to me that this part in particular is rather inflaming, or at the very least insulting to me. I still agree with parts of this last section, but your last line is hurtful... But I'll consider it all, even if I don't like it.

    We are working on it, working on something new. We've torn down the old system (and kept Bukkit+ and added a new way of handling that) while we work on something new.
     
    DDoS and Don Redhorse like this.
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    nossr50

    It doesn't bother me that I don't have a tag anymore.
     
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    jblaske

    This is a better solution by far, and I would prefer it yes. Were I running the forums, thats the direction I would have gone too. However that's not the direction that the bukkit team went. They wanted to remove the tag. While this isn't the *preferred* solution, this is their show, and it is a acceptable solution to me. Since it is acceptable to me, I decided to post a positive response, showing that I'm glad that *something* had been done about the issue.

    Did you bring your idea before the team before this change had been made? If not, then you can't complain that they didn't do it your way. If so, then they had their reasons (valid or not) for not going the direction they did.
     
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    Windwaker

    @Afforess I have suggested countless times that Bukkit should enforce some kind of quality control. The only response I get from that is something like: "If you develop a plugin, you're a plugin developer" While this makes sense in concept, it doesn't turn out well. Why? People want a shiny badge. I agree with you 100% that the lax standards are the flaw in this program, but if Bukkit is not willing to higher their standards, we as a community are better of without them.
     
  19. Offline

    NuclearW

    Again, I can't stress enough that this is an intermediate step. We are still looking for what to replace the Plugin Developer tag with, which may well entail tags with higher standards.
     
  20. Offline

    Afforess

    False Dichotomy. There is a 3rd route. Have your cake and eat it too. The rankings I proposed solved both the identification problem and remained simple for the staff to implement.

    *hands @M1sT3rM4n a slice of cake*

    Any argument that requires personal attacks to defend it is a pretty pathetic argument.

    Plugin quality control is both subjective and time consuming. I agree with bukkit in NOT enforcing quality control. By lowering the standard and presenting possible upgrades to your plugin developer status bukkit could have solved the problem - differently.

    I'm aware. I have a separate...post/satire... dedicated to that as well. I remain unimpressed.

    The very last sentence I nearly removed before posting. I agree, it's extremely mean - but the crux is that it's meant to force someone who disagreed with me to change their own opinion. Very rarely do calm, rational arguments win out - emotions are much more likely to change opinions and that's why that sentence is there. Is it damning? Sure. Does it make me look like a jerk? Definitely. I am a bit of a jerk. But it's also correct.
     
    M1sT3rM4n likes this.
  21. Offline

    NuclearW

    That's alright, I understand your opinion even if I don't agree with it.


    Well, I'm glad you are least willing to admit it's a jerk tactic.
     
  22. Offline

    nossr50

    In a way I kind of like your idea @Afforess but judging the quality of someones plugins seems too subjective. And if its a time based rank then in 3 months all of those people who have the amateur plugin dev rank will be bumped up regardless of their activity, skill level, or quality of their plugins.

    What if we just had tags that represented what you've made or worked on?

    Mine could say 'mcMMO Dev' and then the tags become more of an identifier than a judge of a persons expertise.
     
    lastof, ACStache and WalkerCrouse like this.
  23. Offline

    pyraetos

    As I have pointed out in a different post, I don't mind this step, or the other steps to follow, since the rewards of my experiences developing plugins exceed identification on the forums.
     
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    emericask8ur

    @Afforess Good idea. But wouldnt the users be offended by their rank. (AM Plugin Developer) Will it Expand? Will they rank up?
     
  25. Offline

    ShootToMaim

    Why were the plugin dev tags removed?
    I kind of miss them now ;P
     
  26. Offline

    SwearWord

    You know there are these things called signatures where you can put your plugins in if you really care.

    Just a side note, every plugin on BukkitDev is decompiled and looked through for malicious code so we do actually see everyone's code.

    Also, if I'm being honest I'm guilty of taking a person less seriously if they didn't have a purple tag. It wasn't really conscious or anything, just an automatic reaction. Now I actually look to see who's posting.

    So why not instead of automatic you just let people judge you as they get to know you.
     
    agafaba, jblaske and Vhab like this.
  27. Offline

    Vhab

    Personally, I'm really pleased with the current course of action.
    The system was identified to be broken.

    I personally find the negative effects of the system outweighing the positive effects.
    From this perspective it makes sense to remove the system even if the newer system is not yet in place.
    @Afforess suggests an alternative that has been suggested many times before, but completely disregards the logistical problems with managing such system.
    It's easy to suggest a system that requires a lot of manual work when you're not the one who has to do all the work.
    Ironically, you're the one making this a black and white situation right now, @Afforess.

    I trust the team's ability to come up with a new system that will be maintainable and reasonably fair.
    Removing the current system was the right course of action.

    Finally, I trust far more in the power of nicknames.
    The color of your name should be meaningless.
    Let your actual name carry weight through your accomplishments.
    Without the purple
     
  28. Offline

    M1sT3rM4n

    The fact that the tagging system spawned a gigantic argument such as this warrants its removal.
    /thread
     
    Vhab likes this.
  29. Offline

    dark_hunter

    Bye to the tag I guess. :|
     
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    Afforess

    This might stop 95% of cases, but I bet I could upload a malicious plugin and get it approved. Imagine if my plugin downloaded a "config.yml" file from some http link. Then later, in a totally different area, perhaps in a random event listener, 'renamed' the "config.yml" to "config.jar". Then loaded it. And that evil library, which was not included in the original download and was misnamed intentionally to look innocuous proceeded to remove the black and white list and delete the map. Then starting moving all files on the OS to dev/null.

    Why is that a bad thing? People in the Bukkit+ forum are a lot more civilized and tend to have a least a clue about what they are talking about.

    Huh? I am curious how you call a system I designed for simplicity and minimal effort on the part of the staff "complex". Methinks you need to re-read my idea. Or at least get specific about what you think the downsides are, beyond generic complaints.

    It's illogic like this post that got them removed, not the flaws with the badge.
     
  31. Offline

    M1sT3rM4n

    Think about it. No matter how hard you try to push for true legitimacy of this tag, there will be wannabes who taint that image, leading to arguments like this. I won't bother going into details because the plugin submission section's proof enough.

    It should have been an invitation system to begin with.
     
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