Why reinvent the wheel? Why not just use Permissions and General?

Discussion in 'Bukkit Help' started by Jonathan Bloom, Jan 25, 2011.

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    Jonathan Bloom

    The plugin authors have worked hard on General and Permissions. Yet I see Bukkit making ScrapBukkit and their own permission system.

    This is duplicating efforts and taking time from releasing Bukkit. I think that General and Permissions should be the default plugins.
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    Dinnerbone Bukkit Team Member

    Okay. I'll try not to troll any plugin authors here and be professional.

    - Is the first of about a dozen default plugins we are making. They are going to be modular, split to their own categories, so you can replace them with a more advanced plugin as you wish.
    - Was made before general. "Why reinvent the wheel? Why doesn't niji just use scrapbukkit?"

    - Does not follow our design philosophy. If you want to replace the spawn aspect, whoops, you have to replace everything else.
    - I'll leave it at that.

    Permissions (the plugin):
    - Is based off a very (very) rough sketch we had from the original design document.
    - Falls to all the flaws we set out to avoid since the very day I came up with the idea for bukkit.

    Permissions (the built in thing):
    - Is built in. A LOT less work all around.
    - Let's us do fancy things like a very cool webui for managing permissions (coming soon!) with extreme ease
    - Let's people lookup permissions on the page of fill.bukkit.org for the plugin, instead of searching through pages and pages of manuals for different permission systems.
    - Is more flexible.
    - Allows us to tell you if you did something wrong, and where, when you're editing permissions.
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    Jonathan Bloom

    Hmm, that actually makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

    Hope I didn't come off as rash, was just asking questions. This actually makes a lot of sense now.
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    Not to mention the guys who are writing Bukkit and developed it from day 1 are the same guys who are coding these features we need. Not some plugin developer who "thinks" he knows what he is doing.
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    Bukkit should never have any functionality hardcoded. The current modularity is the best for us, even if it seems a little to complicated and takes long to find the best plugins, there IS the possibility that everyone WILL have the best plugins installed. Hardcoding everything in one big package (waves to Win and Opera users) works for only some people and everybody else will never be fully satisfied.
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    TnT Retired Staff

    I think permissions needs to be built in. The current plugins that offer permissions are cumbersome and hard to use. The majority of support posts these days are "I can't get permissions to work" and have them posting long yml configuration files. I am avoiding them like the plague right now, and avoiding any plugin that relies on them.

    When the devs can pull off what Dinnerbone has stated they should be able to do with their built in permissions, I see no reason why anyone would want to use a plugin to do that.

    Maybe to make everyone happy, the devs can allow the built in permissions to be turned off by plugins such as "permissions". Thus people can still use it if they want to, or avoid it entirely and use the built in system.
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    Permissions & Groups.... & basic general commands should not be a plugin.

    They NEED to be hardcoded to ensure compatibility against ALL plugins, and security for admins running the server. To leave these key elements in the hands of plugin dev's is just asking for trouble and confusion.
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    Oh, sorry, I was talking about the functionality, by which I meant commands. Permissions and groups are more basic than taht of course. But both are to be developed, so no problem there.
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    I agree with this, except for the implied slur against Nijikokun. Nijikokun really really knows what he's doing. But, his solution is suboptimal and Bukkit is intended to have something better. Even he'd agree, I'm sure - but I hate to see people disparage the work of hardworking programmers like that guy. Dude kicks ass 24/7.

    I have this nightmare where people insult the work of plugin authors, not understanding the consequences, until all but one or two leave - and suddenly all we have is a plugin making smoothstone drop diamonds, that I wrote. :p

    I'd rather see some slavish, unwarranted hero-worship of the people doing all this work than people ignorantly dismissing it.
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    TnT Retired Staff

    Yup, we have the ScrapBukkit plugin for commands. Everyone wins. :)
    --- merged: Feb 1, 2011 5:11 PM ---
    Its already been happening. Some devs has thin skins, and the community is driving them away. Everyone should be encouraged to write a plugin if they want, even if its coded like shit. You can't be perfect every time. If the code is open, people will help (in theory) to make that shitty code work better.

    Drop diamonds from smoothstone? You really, really like diamonds, eh?
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    Yeah i appologize about how that sounded. Was not mean to be in refference to Nijikokun specifically. I use alot of his plugins and love them.
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    Exactly. I'm blatantly suggesting, treat plugin devs (and bukkit devs, for that matter) like - well, like they're a person doing something very awesome for you at entirely their own expense and certainly for no money (barring piddling amounts from donations). You know. "Oh gee, you know I love this plugin, but I've encountered problem X..." - even if you don't feel that way, really. Even if you WANT to say, "You idiot, why'd you let a lemur code this feature?!"

    Just pretend to be polite, because a lot of thin-skinned devs are doing REALLY COOL STUFF. For you. For free.

    I don't understand what happens on the internet where people seem to think that cool programs and stuff suddenly just pop outta the ether. You know there's a person out there slaving away to write this stuff, right? ... right...?... Some people honestly don't seem to understand the damage you can potentially do by slapping someone in the face while they're toiling away for no compensation. It's infuriating. I white knight devs because I'm not a developer. That is, they're doing something for me that I could not possibly do for myself without a ton of preliminary work just to start to get started.

    Why would you slap that guy in the face until he quits helping you? WHY?

    Anyway, as for smoothstone dropping diamonds, it was just the worst possible example of a crappy newb plugin that I could think of.
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    TnT Retired Staff

    I would say that goes for everyone on this site. Always nice to feel appreciated for your efforts, whether the efforts include Bukkit programming, Plugin programming, or just being on the forum helping out.

    I'm not knocking it. I just had a humorous image in my head of millions of diamonds everywhere. :)
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    ugh...to be honest, hmod was easier....sooooo much easier.....
    I appreciate what you guys are doing, of course, but just saying, you know.
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    Hmod was also a resource hog, and a total mess when you had more that 2 plug-ins.
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    EvilSeph Retired Staff

    hMod was also done and released and has been out much longer than Bukkit. I really don't get it. You expect us to just have something done and ready? We have to start somewhere.
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    This is exactly what I usually say during these arguments.

    While modularity and the ability to choose, pick and mix plugins are very important, I think certain parts should be hardcoded all the same. The reasons? For one thing, it's a lot easier to "trust" integral parts of Bukkit than random plugins. Plugins are more likely to break.

    I would definitely have permissions and groups as a hard-coded part. I also suggested a centralized way to store data per player, block or item - in the latter case because it looks like the only way to implement it.
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    put all your eggs in one basket? or bukkit...
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    Suggestion: Maybe there should not be an "official" permissions implementation. Rather maybe there should be an official permission API, and the server administrator could use any permission system that met that API. For example, the permission system would have to provide a a User name when called by a certain function.
    This would allow more flexibility to the server administrator, which seems right since they control and are responsible for the server, not the bukkit developers.

    It also encourages plugin developers to develop alternatives which provides flexibility to individual admins, rather then forcing them to either require changes from the bukkit/craftbukkit developers, do without functionality they want, or bukkit/craftbukkit growing to accomodate everyones needs.

    Those who disparage plugin developers should think again, without plugins and those developers mincraft, bukkit and craftbukkit would be non-existent. Without server admins, there would be no minecraft, bukkit, or craftbukkit, and without users there would be no minecraft, bukkit and or craftbukkit. Appreciate all of the developers at each level, and appreciate the server admins and the players too. Each needs the other.
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    TnT Retired Staff

    They are working on built in permissions.
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    In the same way that Windows is "easier" for some people ;)
    tyzoid likes this.
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    I'm all for built in permissions... BUT ONLY IF there's some semi-easy way to convert from Permissions Plugin to the new format/system. I hated Permissions (and CraftBukkit) at first, but I've grown to love permissions, though hMod still had a slightly better system.

    I think we should have a setup with a users file for all users, listing the group per user, special commands per user and the like. And a groups file similar to permissions (without having the users within that file).

    Anyway, that's my take.
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    TnT Retired Staff

    That's best left up to the dev of the permissions plugin.
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    So so so true. :P If I could like your post, I would do so.

    Like previously stated, a handful of plugins are being created for default functions. The benefit of having these coded by the bukkit dev's themselves, is that they're far more familiar with the code than plugin dev's are, so the default plugins are for more likely to be stable and reliable. Though being plugins, you can always swap them out for something else you think will work better for what you're doing.

    That said, many of the plugin devs here are quite capable (Nijikokun is likewise quite skilled). Some may not be, but there are plenty who certainly do know what they're doing.

    Though again, by nature, a plugin developed by the core team is more likely to work without faults.
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