Why always ask money?

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by spirroouu, Nov 3, 2011.

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  1. Offline

    ZNickq

    Because the developers know, any decent plugin takes hours of work, debugging, and then maintaining it and adding new features, oh, and there's always a guy who asks where to put the jar file...
    And if you don't know why you should pay for it, the developers don't know why they should make it...the end!
     
    Torrent and Vhab like this.
  2. Offline

    Vhab

    This is how the world works. You don't know how to do something, so you pay someone that does.
    A mechanic doesn't fix your car for free. Your doctor charges you for a consult. You pay a programmer to make a plugin for you.
     
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  3. Offline

    spirroouu

    Well, yeah true but irl people will try to rip you off
     
  4. Offline

    aPunch

    That's a sweeping generalization. Also, if you feel you are being ripped off, walk away from the deal. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it is the buyer's responsibility to know what is fair and what is unfair.
     
  5. Offline

    spirroouu

    I know it wasnt meant as a generalization but how do you want me to know if i get ripped off if i dont know anything about it, i mean some1 could ask me 200$ for a tnt blocker i couldnt know if its worth the money
     
  6. Offline

    Torrent

    Bam. Hit the nail on the head.
    No point discussing this any further. :p
     
  7. Offline

    mindless728

    well that's a decision that you have to make, whether informed or not, now mind you if you low ball it the dev isn't going to want to code it as it wouldn't be worth it
     
  8. Offline

    DrBowe

    Fair point, now let me throw a few more variables into your equation:

    There are many servers, as I'm sure you know, that are very popular. Typically, these servers have incredible custom plugins that no other server has. All of these servers have some form of 'donation' option, with plenty of incentives.

    Hell, some are even pay-to-play.

    Now, let's say we have our friend Joe here. He decides to try out a server with a cool RPG functionality (Run by our server-admin friend Pete) that was coded by our coder-friend Bob.

    Bob sold his plugin to Pete and only Pete for a ludicrously expensive $40.
    Joe decides that he loves the plugin, and the server, and decides to stay for a while. He also decides that he'll want a few custom titles and a little extra 'in-game currency' to spend. And for a measly price of 10$? Why wouldn't he!

    So Pete is now -30$
    But as I said, this plugin is very unique, and draws in a lot more 'Joe's. By donations alone, Pete makes 300$ a month. Now subtract server costs of $100, to keep things realistic.

    Pete now has made $160 in one month, followed by a constant $200 or so in the coming months.
    Bob has made one payment of $40

    Suddenly the $40 doesn't seem so insane, eh?
     
    Torrent likes this.
  9. Offline

    aPunch

    I wish I had a server as good as Pete's. :(
     
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  10. Offline

    DrBowe

    Talk to @Kainzo , I'm pretty sure with the popularity of his server, HeroCraft makes much more than Pete in a given month.

    And they released their custom-made plugin for free, to boot.
     
  11. Offline

    luciddream

    I understand the difference between IP and a physical good, but what I'm getting at is more the fact that the value of a good doesn't become free just because someone wants it for free, whether it is physical or digital.
     
  12. Offline

    spirroouu

    Indeed
    Indeed. Remember only 3% of the 10k servers have custom plugins
     
  13. Offline

    DrBowe

    And remember that only 3% are worth visiting. Also remember that 93.48% of all statistics are made up on the fly.
     
  14. Offline

    spirroouu

    Well, yes this has been made on the fly just to make an example
    Now imagine joe visits another server ran by will, will pays with his own money for this server and isnt using any custom plugins, he isnt asking for donations and he doesnt really care about it, joe likes his set of plugins and he decides to stay.
    Now will asks a developer to make him one custom plugin, the dev asks him 30$
    Seems much compared to what will wins
     
  15. Offline

    DrBowe

    Then Will should consider himself part of an unfortunate group of people. I like to think that most custom plugin-requests are going to be coming from people planning to make a profit out of it in the long run. Not to say that I fully condone the 'pay-for-plugin' approach, as all of my plugins have been done for free, including a request.

    You see, if Will doesn't really care about it, why would he want a custom plugin?
    And really, we need to clarify the definition of a custom plugin.

    I think of a 'custom plugin' as a plugin that is inherently 'private' to the specified requester, 90% of the time.
    Private-->Pay
    Public-->Maybe for free, unless I don't like the idea and would have no fun in coding it

    It all depends on how you sell your plugin off to the developer.
    Is it fun?
    Is it a good idea?
    Would the developer enjoy doing it?
    Is it even possible?
    How much time would it take?

    The factors are endless. You either get someone who's willing to do it for free, or you say hello to capitalism. Take your pick.
     
  16. Offline

    sintri

    Then you shouldn't have used milk as an example, as milk generally isn't free, plugins and mods on the other hand, traditionally have been. Why is it generally free, well in part cause IP and physical property are quite different, other parts are a bit numerous to list, though not really worth laying out less you really cared about such things. The typical wholesale value of a mod/plugin is zero. That doesn't mean that the worth of a mod/plugin is zero, just typically people don't sell mod/plugins for bit more complicated reasons I don't really care enough to go into. At any rate, point still stands, needs better analogies.
     
  17. Offline

    V10lator

    I don't know what it takes to keep my internet connection up and running, so I don't know why I should pay for it... Well, wait, I do pay... :p
    I think if somebody would really be that bad to ask $200 for that you would ask other devs and compare the prices,wouldn't you?
    Will should really ask himself why he wants a custom plugin instead of taking a public one. Why he needs a "user magnet" if he don't want to get money from them?
     
  18. Offline

    Vhab

    Well this is getting fairly ridiculous..

    How do you know your doctor is asking a fair amount of money? Do you have a medical degree? Do you know the costs of renting/owning and maintaining the building he operates from?
    How do you know you're paying a decent price for your groceries? Are you a farmer, a business man and familiar with the costs involved to transport these goods?
    I can go one like this with a giant list of things you buy in real life where you don't have a clue what it should cost.

    You're either very naive or have yet to leave your house. I don't believe the age in your profile is accurate..
    Humanity has been using this structure of paying for products you can't produce yourself for thousands of years.
    If you can't see how paying for plugins makes sense, you're either trolling or about to have a really hard time surviving the real world.
     
    ZNickq likes this.
  19. Offline

    spirroouu

    Stop comparing with rl things, you said before real things are different then ip and my age in my profile is accurate, thx i am just trying to have a discussion not getting trolled
     
  20. Offline

    Vhab

    Because making plugins doesn't involve real life people?
    When it comes to paying for services, nothing is more relevant than real life.
    Programming is not some imaginary internet profession.

    Just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean they're trolling.
     
  21. Offline

    V10lator

    I never did.
    Me too, but it seems like you ignore my posts.
     
  22. Offline

    dxwarlock

    so it is inherently linked that's its not possible to want to have a well ran, popular server..without the root goal of only making it a cash cow for yourself?

    perhaps I misunderstood what you was saying...but it seems like "why would you want all those people, if you cant find a way to exploit them".

    if I had 10 or 300 people online at a time, I do it because I like knowing that I provide a fun, well managed, and constantly admin'd server for those that like its play style..god knows 50% of servers are made by people that just want god/give and to show it off. (and they usually dont last a month, but the HUGE rotation of new ones replace the old). And I like providing a place for those tired of rummaging though those servers with bad/abusive/power hungry admins. I did it for a month before going "I can do this better, and help others in my situation of finding a good place"

    So i run my server, solely for the fact that I feel good providing a service, for people to enjoy a game I also enjoy for free. a custom plugin is something I actually need, for some specific mechanic my users would like...but never once have I went "wow I got 100+ people, I could milk the shit out of this for money".
     
  23. Offline

    V10lator

    Because the more people you get the more slots you need the more money you need... It's a circle...
    That's what I'm saying. Host a small server with some friends to have fun, host a huge to make money, that's how it works...
    10 okay, 300? Read above.
    Now ask yourself why...
    And you'll spend a few hundred to thousand $ a month for that?
    So you want to share fun but don't want to share that fun with other servers? Why?
     
  24. Offline

    dxwarlock

    Im paying $105 a month now out of my pocket at NFOservers, not everyone moved into the decisions to host a server, without the personal disposable funds already in hand to cover it themselves. I spend 3x as much on cigarettes a month. so spending that on something I enjoy doing also is no burden to me.

    as for the plugin, Id have no problem sharing it if I had one worth sharing...99% of my plugins are public ones. the only 2 custom ones I have is one that simply puts in chat "its now daytime/nighttime"..because users was getting tired of others underground going "is it safe to come out above ground". the other is a very specific one aimed at making guests into trials by reading the rules on our website...neither of which couldn't be made by someone else in 5 minutes if so inclined.

    I dont want to release them as they are simple, do what I need with no mind to expand them with feature request, and dont want to get the stress and hounding by the small group of users I see on other plugin threads of "WHY YOUR PLUGIN NO WORK?" or "I gets erros PLZ HALP"...I donate to plugins I use for that very reason, they make it, deal with the few users that dont know what they are doing, with a smile..and keep going.

    for the "Host a small server with some friends to have fun, host a huge to make money, that's how it works..." then I guess you need to adjust your thinking to add a
    "Host a small server with some friends to have fun, host a huge to make money, or that one guy thats hosts a small/huge server, because its a passion he has with the income and time to do so as a public service, that's how it works..."

    back during hmod, we had 60+ online, and I spend 6-7 hours a day tweaking plugins, checking for updates, helping new people, moderating the server, fixing greifers..etc. of my own time..and enjoyed it. no reason to charge people for my hobby.

    it went offline during the hmod/bukkit bumpy transition, but been back online a few months. and I still spend 5+ hours a day on it. server is my baby..my kid. I do it because I like it. not because I want to make it a side job to earn income.

    And if it ever DID get to the point because of my job, or server costs..to accept donations, the most Id do is ask for donations to cover the extra cost I cannot.
     
  25. Offline

    Tolerance

     
  26. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Keep in mind - a plugin *could* be sold multiple times. Thus, an hour of work at $20 per hour does not equal a $20 plugin if it would be sold en masse. In an organization, you are paid per hour to pump out code - code that may make the company millions. You still get paid a set rate. However, if an organization approaches you to develop some software that they can not turn around and sell to anyone else, your software is immediately more valuable because it has no value outside of that one transaction.

    tl;dr: If you ask a dev to make you a plugin, expect them to ask for compensation. Remember: it takes time and effort to maintain a plugin.

    A plugin request can always be posted to the plugin request forum. Someone may take it up as a plugin they wish to develop and maintain just for the sake of it.
     
  27. Offline

    mindless728

    @TnT depends on what the person who is paying says, they may say it needs to be private to them which entails only they are supposed to run it meaning you shouldn't sell it to someone else, and if you did they could technically ask for a refund and come after you if you don't
     
  28. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    I believe that falls under my one point - if you are approached to develop a plugin that you cannot distribute otherwise, the plugin you develop is immediately of higher value (aka, $$).
     
  29. Offline

    mindless728

    @TnT didn't see that, but at least it is more obvious now
     
  30. Offline

    Kainzo

    We don't. Why do you demand someone else's work for free? You see how this is a cyclical argument?
     
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