We Need A Karma System Against Developers

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by USM666, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. Offline

    USM666

    We need a way to vote on plugins to prevent people from wasting their time. It should be directly on top of the topic so people will be more aware.

    I hate having to waste my time trying to figure out on how to use all of these plugin rejects,the amount of time I spend on it,I may as well be a developer of the actual thing.

    Seeing as how these self proclaimed "programmers" expect their crappy plugins to work,some of them do not even get detected or just crash my server.

    We need a way to avoid crappy plugins and keep focused on actual working ones.
     
  2. Offline

    pyraetos

    Now look here, how about instead of expecting to be spoon-fed perfect functionality into your server, take my advice.

    There is a comments section in BukkitDev project pages for a reason, and many plugin developers have chosen to accept tickets as well. It's part of owning a Bukkit server to contribute to the community by reporting the flaws of plugins so developers can fix them

    If you aren't willing to do simple things like that and actually look into the problems you are having, owning a server or indeed doing IT activities may not be for you.
     
  3. Offline

    Orcem12

    @USM666
    So let me get this straight. Since our plugins don't work easily for you because you don't understand what it does makes us to blame. Of course, this is the 'user' mentality. I always try to keep a straight poker face when helping my users and I try to make their situations better by providing step by step instructions like most developers do. It is your responsibility to download the plugins you want and to make sure it's approved and certified. In the most unlikely case your server crashes, the plugin is probably outdated/experimental. Your incompetence as a user is unbelievable. I hate to make statements putting developers high above everyone else because we aren't but we also aren't getting paid to help, develop, maintain and add new plugins to the wonderful world of Bukkit.org. Please consider the following:
    • If Bukkit didn't exist.
    • If plugins weren't created and checked by a staff
    • If developers didn't try to help
    • If dedicated people on these forums didn't help you with all or any of your Minecraft Server problems

    So before you come here throwing rocks at the developers remember we DON'T have to do this and we DON'T need to help you. Think twice before re-posting and choice your words carefully. You have entered a hole with no ladders.
     
  4. Offline

    bluehasia

    I agree with both of you...

    i would like to see a star rating system.... it help us server admins let the plugin community what we like or not

    and yes red the comments to see if the post say plugin is buggy.... and if the plugin page has no were to comment i ignore that plugin.
     
  5. Offline

    pyraetos

    I really don't think a star-rating system could work, unless it was a scale of how buggy the plugin currently is. Every plugin is specified to do certain things, it's not up to whether the majority of server owners consider it helpful; it depends on the server.

    However, if the plugin has issues such that it can't cohesively complete all the specifications in its description, the programmer should listen to his users and immediately add the problem as a caveat. Then he can fix it on his own time.
     
  6. Offline

    zipfe

    A rating system would fail, I think. The complicate to set up plugins would get a lot of rage downvotes by idiots that expect to run a server by double clicking a .bat on their Windows Desktop and adding [Admin] before their nickname.
     
    tyzoid, Hoolean, chakyl and 2 others like this.
  7. Offline

    Orcem12

    @pyraetos
    In my personal experience back in the days of non-BukkitDev there was a rush for the tag. I called it the purple rush. I think you know what I'm referring too. Anyways the star system could work but only after the developer initiates the system. If it starts on default you'll get the one server owner complaining that there is one bug and give you 1 half of a star. Which will may dwindle any future developers young and old from continuing thus slowly killing Bukkit. And of course you'll have your mainstream developers acting differently then per amount of stars, etc etc and etc. Overall ranking systems never proved anything but the lack of attention.
     
  8. Offline

    pyraetos

    When were we even talking about the tag :confused:
     
  9. Offline

    Orcem12

    Not really talking, referring too. The tag was a fight for attention much like the "Star" system could be.
     
  10. Offline

    pyraetos

    Heh, yeah. There were definitely some self-centered developers, and believe me, still are. Some people just want a BukkitDev project page for no reason other than to have one.
     
  11. Offline

    Orcem12

    Nameless of course, I agree. Hell, I might self-conscientiously be; but I do one thing, ranking systems will bring back the same thing the staff tried to remove. Which was the gap between the Kings and the Peasants.
     
  12. Offline

    pyraetos

    True, but when you think about it, the rating system (in itself) could encourage developers to work for the users, not the other way around, since a low rating could be given.

    I still don't believe it could be successfully implemented.
     
  13. Offline

    Orcem12

    Your absolutely right and I recognize this, but, like you mentioned, it would be nearly impossible to implement and successfully predetermine the actual outcome of the scale.

    Developer A: Made super cool PvP plugin and has been around for nearly a year and has successfully reached his download peak of 50k. Developer A receives 4 1/2 stars which encourages him to keep the same and doesn't update unless required.

    Developer B: Made a less cool PvP plugin but has some unique features. Developer B is a little newer to plugin creation and doesn't quite understand the art as much as the other developers, but clearly shows potential. However, he receives 1 1/2 stars thus tries to improve his plugin but after much updating and fewer downloads because of rank he has no conceivable way of progressing. Since this is the case, developer B stops production and quits development.

    I can only see how this could be a major problem.
     
  14. Offline

    pyraetos

    Yeah, that scenario example is definitely possible. We don't want plugin development to turn into a vicious cycle.
     
  15. Offline

    USM666

    Don't understand? Sorry I am not here to BABY around programmers and do their projects for them. I expect to just install it instantly and get started on using the damn thing.

    I spend more time figuring out how to decode their crappy programming and trial and error only to find out it's just a complete failure.

    For example,World Edit is a reliable plugin,it does what it's supposed to do flawlessly and effectively in the FIRST time I use it. I like the plugin,I recommend it and actually start using it.

    I have better things to do than to argue with programmers and their low quality products they make.
     
  16. Offline

    hatstand

    In a similar vein, I propose a karma system for users, so developers can identify those who cannot be bothered to read or follow simple instructions, or who take the service they provide to this community for granted :p
     
    tyzoid, Hoolean, dark navi and 8 others like this.
  17. Offline

    Orcem12

    You obviously are the most ignorant person. I really don't care for arguing either but your incompetence and lack of moral integrity is just disgusting. Not to mention your complete nonsense of posting arguing a point you best can't defend. Don't even try to quote me. Your being ignored. Programmers work day and night for the user and never receive a thanks unless it's extremely rare. If you want a plugin make it yourself. We/I don't have time for your foolishness. Again we don't need to make plugins and in case you don't have the memory: Minecraft @ Bukkit is a development forum. We aren't here to unleash the new Call of Duty we are here to serve for next to no money for long hours of dealing with crap like this. USM666, you are one unbelievable user. Again, don't respond to me. I can't take such lack of knowledge in a field you seem to show zero knowledge in.

    O trust me, we all know who are the bad eggs.
     
    MrBluebear3 and afistofirony like this.
  18. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    USM666
    Plugin popularity systems aren't the answer to bugs in a plugin. If you like what the plugin does (or is supposed to do), work with the author to make it better. If you find it hard to use, update the wiki or documentation to make it more clear. I cannot count how many plugins I've worked with over the years, improving their documentation, reporting bugs, etc. This is part of the price you pay to run a Minecraft server.

    There are many plugin devs today who's first foray into programming is making plugins for Bukkit. We're not going to discourage this by providing a system solely based on popularity.
     
    afistofirony likes this.
  19. Offline

    mindless728

    USM666 well since you think you are a "high and mighty bukkit user (ie server owner" I will like to point out your stupidity

    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/fun-bcmusic-v3-2-custom-music-w-spout-1000.23624/

    you said don't waste time on this plugin because it doesn't work
    1) It is from build 1000 and the main post was last updated Aug 17, 2011
    2) It says it uses the old permission systems (a tip off that it is inactive)
    3) Could be using old API's from Spout (didn't delve into the source)

    hmmm, this is just one example, I bet if I looked harder I could find more. So before you complain that the developers are lazy, learn to figure things out and what things mean (ie IT IS FUCKING INACTIVE)

    btw, people like you are some of the reason that developers leave this community, because YOU are too god damned lazy to either RTFM or configure it. So all in all I am telling you go fuck yourself

    @mods, yeah I know this post is bad it will more than likely generate an infraction (and/or ban), it needs to be said. These are the kind of users that this community doesn't need.
     
  20. Offline

    Orcem12

    @TnT
    I agree with this, Java for me was learned through Bukkit and I can't thank them enough.
     
    MrBluebear3 likes this.
  21. Offline

    pyraetos

    USM666 Don't forget, WorldEdit is one of the oldest of plugins. It has had a huge user base, and plenty of time and resources to fix itself to the level it's at. Why? Because of users reporting problems.
     
  22. Offline

    NuclearW

    Let me tell you what: if I wasn't staff the ignore button would be my best friend. You're not staff, maybe it can be your best friend?



    USM666 I'm just going to have to... respectfully disagree with you. Just about anything I'd like to say has already been said.
     
  23. Offline

    Codex Arcanum

    Wouldn't work well. Would lead to a competitive and unnecessary degree of rivalry between developers that should be helping each other squash the bugs you are raging about above.

    Honestly, in all likelihood, even if you are using one of millions of newbie TNT Blocking/Lava Blocking/Message Printing/etc. plugins, the author spent much more time making it than you did understanding how it works. Learn java, make a simple plugin or two, then you get to whine about this. You'll still be wrong, but then you have something resembling a leg to stand on.

    My server has run about 160 different plugins at various points during testing, and I have only had one crash the server, and that was because I installed it incorrectly (config file was messed up). And I don't even know what you mean when you say "do not get detected", but it seems to me that it would take a lot to make Bukkit flat out not detect a plugin. Heck, even if it's missing a plugin.yml it throws an error about it.

    Yeah, well, maybe plugin developers need a user rating system to avoid crappy users and keep focused on helping the actually working ones.
     
    MrBluebear3 and afistofirony like this.
  24. Offline

    negasora

    Trust me you don't have to "Baby around" devs. Also, instead of expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, how about providing constructive criticism if a plugin doesn't perform to your standards? Lastly, you really are burning more than a few bridges with a large number of Bukkit developers, some of which might have made some of the plugins you use. Please respect others.



    TLDR version:
    Please refer to the information on this page: http://i.imgur.com/uaDSU.jpg
     
  25. Offline

    V10lator

    Really? Well, then maybe you should start developing, if it's faster...
    Seeing as how these self proclaimed server administrators expect everything to work without reading the docs, some of them even throw zip files in the plugins folder and rage that they don't get detected. Some even have some things like world corruption cause they don't even know how to stop the server safely and then they are rageing that plugins are crashing their server just because the plugin loads a corrupted chunk, for example. Of course that chunk would be loaded without the plugin some time, too and as a result the server would crash without the plugin, too...
    Last but not they rague about bugs but don't report them. Think about it this way: You build a new car, the car works just fine for you, so you release it to the public. Short time after some guys tell that your car sucks cause it won't drive. What would you do now? Check every skrew and every nail? I did that with plugins and it's not funny reviewing the code a few hours without finding anything, especially if you realize that it was the users fault at the end,cause he tanked the wrong fuel.
    We have this: Just look at the plugins last 5 comments. If the plugin would be crappy they would be full of rage.

    BTW: You're talking about WG. WG has many configs and commands... You knew them all without reading docs when you startet your server with it the first time? Yea, sure...
    What would you do if WG would stop working tomorrow and the development would stop? Re-wite it from scratch? WG wasn't written in the time you need to read it's documentation. Not even close.

    Small plugins may be writable in a short time, but large, complex ones (like WG) need days to months - for ONE plugin (is there any plugin big enough to say it takes years?) - some plugins where even written by a team of developers and they still needed months. Also writing a plugin is not writing a bit of code, compiling and relaxing. It's writing a ton of code (thousands of lines...), reading docs (yes, we have to do that, too!), optimizing (which means rewriting) parts of the codes... Then it goes to testing. Now try to write just 500 lines in a language not your mother language without making one mistake: It's impossible. That means testing all and every function of the plugin in all and every possible way (which sometimes isn't possible, hence why devs can't always know all bugs), then fix the bugs found, then testing again, fixing, testing, ... till everything works like it should. And now you may think "okay, but that's it..." no, it isn't! Next step is to wite a good documentation so little [CENSORED] like you can blame us for writing bad documentation.
    And we do all this for free in our sparetime! We are no big company with QA, house-internal bug testers, code reviewers, documentation writers, ...
     
    obnoxint and afistofirony like this.
  26. Offline

    afistofirony

    This would never work, some butthurt user would simply downvote the plugin on the initial release, thus screwing the plugin over forever.

    I don't think there is any way you can spend more time researching a plugin than you can developing one. Do you know how long it takes? I tried out java today and to make a simple command return a message to me has taken me over an hour... imagine how long it would take to write an entire plugin.

    If you aren't willing to even take more than twenty seconds with a plugin and just rage quit when it gives an error, then you don't need to be running a server.

    Well not everything is instant gratification. Server management takes a lot of patience. Not everything is "herp derp drop in random folder all set"

    Then code it yourself. Seeing as you only have the attention span of a speck of dust, I'm sure you'll have fun developing it.

    Because WorldEdit is like the oldest plugin on Bukkit. It's had time to get rid of its errors.

    Low quality? I'm sure you'd do a better job.

    People like you disgust me, because you seem to have absolutely no respect for developers, who take time out of their schedule helping crybabies like you with your petty problems -- without pay. Most plugins that don't have any errors in them are so because people take the time to report errors in a rational manner instead of bringing their ass here and whining about how plugins don't work instantly and with absolutely zero errors.

    And with that ... have a great day.
     
    MrBluebear3 and negasora like this.
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