This really needs to stop.

Discussion in 'Plugin Development' started by Nijikokun, Aug 3, 2011.

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  1. Offline

    mindless728

    lets see my plugins
    ClassicFluids: currently kind of broken, but mostly works (will be phased out soon), a plugin i ported from hMod (same name, name plugin, i wrote it), i don't think there were many when i released it as bukkit was still young
    DeadlyBorders: as no one complained, i didn't update it until recently, and that was for a friend of mine that runs a server (i just don't feel like updating the post)
    RealFluids: Christ, this plugin has been eating so much of my time trying to recode it with multiple threads (one for each fluid) and yet have each fluid drag and drop (separate plugin)

    all in all i agree, their are a lot of copied plugin ideas that all do essentially the same thing and its very annoying
     
  2. Offline

    martinherrmann

    true words-
    improving and extending already existing code is in the idea of the open source community.
    As Admin you have a large range of plugins you can choose from.
    there are so much permission plugins and stuff out there, or chat, or just whatever you can imagine.
    (it happend to me the first time falsebook released. i just couldn't understand why the author just didnt contribute)

    i hope this Community will change in to a more open and self proving and challenging community rather then to a compettion

    but thats just idealism.
    i think there are always some People who have other opinions or just people who learn programming in solving problems for their needs and running on their servers and just offer them to the rest.

    maybe this will happen.
    i hope this will happen that the Developers get back to the idea of get use of the opensource instead of "just make my own"
     
  3. Offline

    bergerkiller

    Extending is kinda hard when developers (although not literally tagged) do not want others to use their code. This makes developers think:
    And I currently don't see a change in that. Even if the source is open for public, you get a nasty feeling when you press control-c in github and control-v in Eclipse. It just doesn't feel right. Unless developers start stating that people are allowed to copy stuff from their plugins to extend it further, no change will come. I see often enough that people ask:
    And usually this is responded with: Ok, as long you do add my name in the Credits (and link me the submission thread).

    I see no problem in that, but 'newbies' don't exactly have the 'guts' to ask, afraid for nasty responses. It is the general development atmosphere that is causing this, not the 'general idea of using open source'.

    Here you have it, my current thoughts about the current state of these forums. [bookshelf]
     
  4. Offline

    Celtic Minstrel

    Even vanilla Minecraft has emotes with the /me command. Yes, that's right, no plugin is required for that.

    Wild wheat crops? I thought of doing something like that once; nothing ever came of it.

    (emphasis mine)
    General (which isn't even a teleport plugin… maybe I got a little carried away) supports all of those apart from <savedlocationname>; Tele++ also supports them and more besides. I don't know of any teleport plugin that also supports "warps", ie giving a name to a location so that you can return to it later, but there are two very good plugins that specialize in warps only.

    That's a recipe for getting stuck in solid rock or teleporting into midair and falling to your death.

    Probably the best way for /tp world to be handled in a way that distinguishes it from /tp world spawn would be for the plugin to record your location in a world when you teleport out of it, and then /tp world would teleport you to your last known location in that world.


    ----

    Before I created SimpleSignEdit, I checked to be sure that no other sign edit plugins made it possible to edit without using commands. And then, a day or a week after I released, someone else released one that did more or less the same thing. It did have a client mod, but I don't think it required it for the edit-by-clicking feature if I recall correctly.
     
  5. Offline

    caHarkness

    I think it's all about competition. Whoever gets more attention gets more attention. There shouldn't be a right and wrong plugin.. Plus, many plugins that people claim "do the same thing" actually have quite distinctive qualities and features.
     
    Bronski likes this.
  6. Offline

    Tster

    Not neceseraly, you could get the highest block at the players x & z and tele them there, that wouldn't have any issues
     
  7. Offline

    IcySeal

    I feel there is no real way to stop this. Unless the staff were willing to take a more strict approach possibly involving what I have seen on some other forms. A minion team, not technically staff but their only job would be to approve/deny new plugins, as well as prune inactive unsupported plugins, ask the more active members of the community if they would like to help out a little bit more. Possibly also put up a 'no remakes' clause/section in the plugin guidelines thread?

    I myself try to come up with as many original ideas but as was said before, with the sheer volume of developers and plugins, it's becoming more difficult. Many project folders lay littered around my workspace due to disinterest or finding it had already been done. Finally though I feel like I have come up with something unique and am working really hard at it to make it the best that I can.

    I would have to disagree, the kind of plugins we're thinking of are very simple easy to replicate plugins such as teleporters and the like. I won't say that every single one is a straight up copy and paste, some have done really amazing things, the problem is that the vast majority are cookie cutter plugins.
     
  8. Offline

    Celtic Minstrel

    True, but that's not what you said. :p

    Yes, I tend to take things literally.
     
  9. Offline

    oz_revulsion

    I agree with this in essence, but I think there needs to be some concessions made. My first plugin was WurkIt. I built WurkIt because I needed gnftoxic's awesome plugin Paid2Mine updated because I was using it in my server and I needed a fix to keep using it. I thought he was afk, in the end he wasn't, he actually came back the day after I released. The first version of WurkIt was exactly the same as Paid2Mine (can I point out there was no source code for P2M when I built WurkIt like there is now so I didn't little Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V) but I worked my butt off and now I feel like WurkIt is different enough so that it can be a decent alternative for Paid2Mine.

    Now it's not just because I did it; but I do think that people deserve a chance to make their plugin something useful to the community rather than a carbon copy of another plugin. Recently I saw someone flame a guy who released his first logging plugin. Now granted we have heaps of these but everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves and newbies deserve their cookies. Now granted if this guy had made a warp plugin, a home plugin, a logging plugin and TNT warning system then OK maybe this is justified but on a first plugin? What needs to be remembered is all of us started somewhere and, as is evidenced by a number of posts here, there is a large part of the community who has been guilty of making a carbon copy plugin but we have all learned from it!

    I agree that blind copying might not be the best thing for the community but not giving new members a place and a chance to learn we're doing more damage. I guess all I am saying is "Yeah all the double plugins isn't great but without being a jack-ass to new guys who are learning how are you going to fix it?"

    Cheers
    Oz
     
    Don Redhorse and Bronski like this.
  10. Offline

    IcySeal

    The problem is though, that so many of these first plugins are released then just left to stagnate, so the original author never really does make it unique.
     
    Don Redhorse likes this.
  11. Offline

    cholo71796

    Plugin developers are not required to release test plugins.
     
  12. Offline

    Redyugi

    I agree with most of this thread. I mean, I have remade quite a few plugins cause it was good experience, and it was more suited for my needs at the time. I never released them, and I certainly won't release any of the ones I wanted to anymore. The purple tag means nothing to me, as I have helped quite a few people with said purple tag with really basic things... like understanding a stacktrace....
    It was the same way on RPG Maker forums when I used to use RPG Maker. Course, then, I had actually stuff released but... As soon as good tutorials came out, I saw 3 - 7 of the SAME script.
    I mean I understand there is only so much you can do right now but... come on. lol
     
  13. Offline

    tyzoid

    I agree 99% with this thread.
    the 1% are the people who re-write a plugin to make it do something better/faster than the previous one. Over time, more features are added (not always the case) and plugins diverge.

    I'm guilty as to not putting ANY comments in my code :(
    although, my code isn't out for others to see.
     
  14. Offline

    Celtic Minstrel

    You make a good point, in that the existence of tutorials doesn't actually help that much. I'd personally think that tutorials for writing Bukkit plugins should be written with the assumption that a) you know how to program Java and b) you know how to use an IDE. If either of the assumptions are false, they should be looking for separate tutorials to cover that ground before going through the Bukkit plugin tutorial. It also annoys me when people ask for a tutorial on using plugins of mild complexity that are decently documented. (And even if they're not decently documented, actual documentation would be more useful than a tutorial in most cases. A tutorial is helpful for very complicated plugins, such as CraftIRC or DynMap, but for most, good reference documentation is enough.)
     
  15. Offline

    Redyugi

    Amen to that. When I download libraries for whatever I am programming, I always find documentation better then the tutorials. That's the only good thing about Java... Javadocs. XD
     
  16. Offline

    RabidCrab

    Maybe instead of a more strict approval process we just need a system where you can up or down vote a plugin, and the highest ranked plugins are at the top, so that the new ones and copies have a harder time in the plugin list. Currently it looks like plugins are ordered by the last posting date. It'll make it harder for people to get confused as to which one is the "best" overall, and it'll make people more inclined to team up on related projects because they won't get much popularity if their plugin doesn't have something truly unique.

    It'd also be a good idea to pair the up and down votes with the users profile, so that everyone can see what quality of plugin developer you are by your total score. If you puke out crap copy plugins, people are going to down vote the crap out of it and you'll get negative points on your profile that everyone will see when you post anywhere. Put something like "Plugin Score: 22" right under the purple "Plugin Developer".

    The best way to prevent people from doing things is to give consequences for bad behavior. Having a very public rating system would probably be enough to make copy cats think twice before releasing their plugin.
     
  17. Offline

    Adamki11s

    I love this idea, I really do :D Hopefully Bukkit will consider it.
     
  18. Offline

    gameswereus

    Well said. The only reason I'd see a reason to make multiple of the same plugin idea is if it's inactive, or it is so much improved to another one that it's a must have type of product.
     
  19. Offline

    Kalais

    Well spoken. The amount of permission plugins are mind-boggling.
     
  20. Offline

    DrBowe

    The cons of a system like this far outweigh the pros.

    First off, we all know that people aren't going to be 'morally right' in their ways, and give people the scores they deserve.

    "What's that? You wont add MySQL because it doesn't need it? FINE. 0 SCORE FOR YOUR PLUGIN, YOU'RE A HORRIBLE DEVELOPER!"

    Additionally, this would truly make it hard for any new and rising developer to gain any recognition. Sure, some of them do the Copy-Paste 'same ole PoS' plugin ordeal...but some of them don't. With a system like this, people would flock to any high-rated, even if their plugin make actually be coded better, and include twice as many features.

    As a new developer, I'd imagine one of the most frustrating things that could happen, would be if you release a well-thought out plugin...but it's pushed to the bottom of the list. Without any 'Hey, good job man!'s, it actually becomes harder to bring yourself to flourish on your ideas. (Unless you are making the entire thing for your own needs)

    This is why we have it set to the way it is now: Most recent --> First listed
    This gives those developers a chance to prove their merit. If their plugin is nothing special, it will eventually fall to the bottom of the list. Sure, they can 'bump' it...but that would only be frowned upon and degrade their status further.

    A system like this would almost be as bad as the 'Like' system on YouTube.
    Just my 2 cents.
     
    Bronski likes this.
  21. Offline

    (infected)

    Show Spoiler


    Just keep those pesky kids from "Bumping".
    Make the newest thread out at the top of the submissions. This is a fair way to stop the abuse and to keep the submissions in an ordered fashion.
    Got better suggestions?
     
  22. Offline

    Adamki11s

    Now that I think about it you're absolutely right, this system would probably work out horribly :p
     
  23. Offline

    Styx Reborn

    Thank god there are still only a few world gens.
     
  24. Offline

    Grammar Troll

    Thank you, bunch of trolls.
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/remove-me-from-plugin-developer.30022/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.27920/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.29928/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.19724/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.13192/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.8409/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.7827/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.6991/
    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/no.4069/
    EDIT: Apparently, I misunderstood some things? Crash is quite the troll himself:
    In my honest opinion, I think it is quite pathetic to list plugins and laugh at them, because they're 'unoriginal'.
     
    Jeyge likes this.
  25. Offline

    Jeyge

    At a minimum, it should have been placed in the plugin dev only forum. Everyone else doesn't need to be subjected to this.
     
  26. Offline

    skawke

    There's nothing wrong with giving the people using bukkit more alternatives. You guys care too much about the 'purple tag'.

    The line is crossed when people copy and paste work though.
     
  27. Offline

    DrBowe

    The people who 'care about the purple tag' are those who are willing to throw some PoS plugin that has already been done 10x better into submissions.

    I don't care if they get the tag, but don't move it into Releases. It clutters the search.
     
  28. Offline

    locutus

    Yeah, that was hilarious. I find myself guilty of participating in that. I didn't find an arrow plugin that had block ignition with permissions and easy user interface, so I picked one and started to modify it. Just As I got done, you showed up. Now, everything I want is in EffectiveArrows, so don't think I'll be maintaining FireArrows any longer.

    Seriously people, work WITH the developer/maintainer to get features added. I've had a modified version of Factions that hurts when building in enemy territory, but instead of releasing, I submitted a pull request, and now that is a part of Factions. This is how it should be done.

    Some things should not be released at all. I have a hack that integrates vampires and preciousstones, allowing me and players to build monster traps that affect vampires. It's such a small and random thing (<10 lines iirc), that its not worth integrating back into the Vampires code, IMHO

    One exception I'm about to throw is Capture me. I'm not sure if it's the right thing, but I'm going to remake from scratch. I've been waiting 3 weeks for this to work, and during some if that, the dev was on vacation. now he's back, but it still doesn't work. I want something like this by Thursday, for a LAN party on Friday and I'm not sure if he'll get it together. Any advice?
     
  29. Offline

    Monstertke

    Reddit.com style FTW.
     
  30. Offline

    Randy Schouten

    I too have created a plugin that had features of another plugin, but I took it to the next level (in my opinion).
    It was the first plugin I created, it's called CustomBlockRestriction.

    It took the idea of (for instance) WorldGuard stopping TNT from exploding and the likes.
    I then started writing it so that you can disable anything from being destroyed.
    Later I also added block placement.

    So what I want to say is, it's alright to take an idea, but not to just copy paste and have the same plugin copied.
    It is alright to take an idea and taking it to the next level I think.

    So in that way, maybe Bukkit should consider removing duplicate plugins and keep the original ones only.
    This would apply if the original works perfectly fine (updated etc.).
    Then when the duplicate plugin is updated to have a brand new feature which is not the same, move to "Plugin Releases".
    This way there will be no duplicates and people would have more original ideas to get the purple label.
     
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