Theory why bukkit takes so long to update to 1.7.2

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by johnnywoof, Nov 3, 2013.

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Do you agree with this?

  1. Yes I do!

    33.0%
  2. Maybe......

    27.8%
  3. Not at all!

    39.2%
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  1. Offline

    KO23L

    I only hope that Mojang dont release next update only day after release of Bukkit 1.7.2 ... :( ... For my tastes the 1.7.2 was released too early after 1.6.4 ... who still have the time to look for functional plugins, messing with forge etc. :)
     
  2. Offline

    gabessdsp


    I disagree with that, I mean the majority of people who complain are complaining because they can't use the latest Minecraft for their server, they don't care about the plugins breaking as much as they just want to play. Then after they get the update to play they start to complain things don't work and don't understand why.
     
    Chinwe, diannetea and XD 3VIL M0NKEY like this.
  3. Offline

    NanotubeDemon

    Alright, I just had to step in on this. No joke, I had to sign up for an account to actually enter this mess. :)

    I'm a developer. I am an average to slightly below average developer if I may say so myself. But, I've seen enough projects in the 22 years I've been doing it to some productive degree to know that this can not, in any way, be an easy task. We know from tweets that have been made by Mojang employees that tons of code have been changed. Not only that, but tons of stuff has been refactored. Names have changed, chunks of code have been moved or combined with other code. Code was taken out and new code put in on the scale of thousands of lines.

    We also know the Bukkit team is working with not original source. So, we now also know they not only have to figure out what was refactored, but also where stuff went, *AND* what is new. (And we all know there is a lot new because, well, we're all waiting for it.)

    So we know this is a big task, and we know it could potentially take lots of unpaid man hours. People doing this stuff get paid US$60-100k a year+. They're doing it 'cause they care much more than this much: { }

    We also know that the people who are working on the project know what they're doing, right? I mean, if someone were to work on 25 kinds of cars over the years, those people would know those cars inside and out, down to the year the change was made. ... and then the people working on the cars found out (and were likely reading everything about the car changes, learning everything they can) that the cars were changing to fusion power. The mechanics can still work on the cars, but their prior knowledge has less relevance, right?

    Mojang just changed to fusion....well, maybe Mr. Fusion circa. Back to the Future...

    With all of this in mind, why is there even a 'theory' thread? Is it really that hard to grasp? I don't need to be a member of the Bukkit team to know they have their hands full.

    And another thing...I'm a developer. I hate talking to my customers because, frankly, they are finicky, picky, don't know what they're asking for actually means and make life in general harder for me. I leave communications experts up to that task. (In reality, I'm not good enough at developing to be a 100% developer, so I'm the communications person [won't say expert here].) The devs need their space to get their code on! I've had to learn polite techniques to tell customers in very proper prose how to shove x where their y shines.

    Could they use better means to communicate? I would say probably. In communication, there is a very fine line between communicating effectively, over-communicating, and under. The absence of information from the team is a bit jarring. And, the truth of the matter is that with a product comes a customer base. They need to serve the customer base. An absence of information breeds ignorance -- directed squarely at those who just make stuff up and troll for the sake of it.

    Now...that said, if they start doing that, they need to be the ones with resolve to stick with it regardless of how much people may whine, be childish and be insensitive. Focus on the positive people (of which there are a great deal of in this community). The first rule of social media is to grow with the positive, discard the trolls and learn from constructive feedback. So I would encourage the team to find a soul who isn't a developer, but is knowledgeable enough to be able to tell the world 'we're here. Not near a release. Hate Mojang today.' and in the politest voice possible 'if you think you can do better, either put up or shut up!' Don't be afraid to say 'we're still trying to untie this knot'. Don't mind the a**hats who aren't appreciative for your work. They are the vocal minority. You do all the work you can for your reasons, and you should be proud of that, and for every 1 prick on the forum, there is an army of people who appreciate what you do. For my own modest corner of the interwebs, I thank you for your work.

    Now someone take that poll down. It is embarrassing. ;-)



    In regards to feedback: thank you to the admins and moderators for allowing this thread to continue.
     
  4. Offline

    diannetea

    So, I've been running a bukkit server for around two years. This happens every time Mojang releases a big update, get used to it. I don't have a problem with the wait or lack of information. I do have a problem with kids complaining about something they are getting for free.

    My mom always told me beggars can't be choosers.
     
  5. Offline

    s32ialx

    Just going to quote sections of this quote here

    So contradicting that post PunJedi quoted... what happened... was it the fact that the bukkit devs failed to keep there word and I requote
    becuase forge by FAR is not better in any way it's just another modded server where bukkit (be it a hack fest) is still vanilla server with the option for plugins... and vanilla client... forge is garbage ok fine you want server ops to mod there server.jar and add forge files to it just to add forge mods/plugins... fine but WHY THE HECK DO CLIENTS NEED THE MODS TOO... Bukkit = superior... and second is Forge is the OFFICAL minecraft api why is it seperate... it should be included in EVERY build that is released as PART of the client/server not an addon that modifies the jars. again bukkit superior (yes i know it's still a hackfest) but it's a single jar that requires no modifications just add plugins in the plugins folder and configure as wanted no client modifications/plugins needed.

    again how is forge even a suitable alternative. it's by far not

    the client should never have to go out of there way to play on your server... NEVER (which is why a lot of server ops use the hackfest builds to allow the newer clients (because it promotes the end user not needing to go out of there way and remain the sheep they want to be. I know it sounds rude but people are lazy they don't want to learn how to roll back there minecraft... they don't even care enough to learn how to read an installer and click deny or skip on uncheck the box that will CLEARLY give them unwanted "spyware" when installing a new program. or the fact that crack.exe is an obvious virus because a true cracker cracks an exe makes a "Patcher" or a Keygen not a crack.exe)

    so all in all Forge is not acceptable esp since they keep it even less up todate than bukkit is... last time i checked bukkit was 1.6.2 and forge was still 1.5 like WOW really... mojang reallly....

    Bukkit your team does great work when it grinds it out but these delays with out due process of daily reports is unwanted and being as your server (excluding spigot because it's a fork (though it is slightly better with built in anti x-ray and more optimized cpu/ram allocation/usage) it does break the rules and go against the flow with releasing the hackfest servers to allow the newer clients.) your server is the best in fact ONLY feasible solution to running a decent stable minecraft server with anti-griefing/player block protection
     
  6. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Those people who used to work on Bukkit are now employed by Mojang and no longer do any further work on Bukkit. No one who works on Bukkit is employed by Mojang. What Mojang should and shouldn't do is not speculation I will be getting into.

    All that would do is ensure no one on the team would have any time to work on CraftBukkit or the Bukkit API itself. Updating is stressful and time consuming. The whole project would suffer and we'd be no further ahead.

    That won't help you satisfy your curiosity, and only leads to more questions. Unless you have intimate knowledge of how our update process works, it won't make sense. We provide that information and you'll ask for context. We'll provide context and you'll ask for how that fits into the overall estimated time to release. Our developers will be spending their time answering questions rather than updating. We lose. You lose. The update takes longer than it did before.

    We can distill the message down to "We've made significant progress today" but when you see that message multiple days in a row it no longer provides an imaginary sense of information into how the update is coming along. Due to the nature of our update method, writing everything down and ensuring the community has a whole can understand it is far too much work as it can change based on the MC update. The only way knowledge of what part of the update process we are in helps you is if you intimately know the update process itself because you are doing the actual updating.

    Our update process doesn't work like that. We aren't adding in new features one at a time. That kind of update would not be telling the truth.

    If this was a straight forward project along the lines of having to develop a project with specific features providing an ETA is a rather reasonable request. Decompiling someone else's work, writing an API to work with that (and updating an API where needed every update), then ensuring your implementation of that API actually works is not tasks that lend well to providing an ETA.

    That's a promise for Mojang to keep. That was the intent of the developers who left Bukkit to go work for Mojang, and as far as I am aware they still intend to do exactly that. Mojang's goals are their own, and do not relate to our update process.
     
  7. Offline

    Robolord

    Indeed, it will lead to questions. And then you use the same policy as you use now, you dont answer those questions. But questions are a hell lot better then everyone nagging about what you guys are actually doing. If it does not make sence to us put it in a sentence that DOES make sence to us. It can not be that hard.

    And how are you talking about "we" as in the developer team while you clearly stated none of the developers moderate the forums? Maybe you cant type 10 comprehensive words about what you've done today. But I expect the developers to be able to do this.

    We do not want a sense of how the update is coming along, we just dont want the damned silence we hear day after day! Man mojang better hurries with their mod API cause you honestly are not getting the point!
     
  8. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    You contradict yourself. If we get asked questions that we don't answer we'll be right back to where we are right now, with our time being lost. Everyone would still nag us because we didn't answer those questions. I know this because we've been through this before. Contrary to your belief, its far harder than you think.

    We, as in Bukkit. I'd rather have the developers work on the update so it doesn't take any longer than necessary, and if you read my points above you'll understand why this would be a futile effort.

    We work toward the update every time a new Minecraft release is put out. That is something you can rely on, as it is the entire point of this project. If you feel I am missing your point, please try to understand mine a little better. You seem to be dismissing everything I've stated.
     
  9. Offline

    mpmumau


    Robo, as a similarly chronically frustrated server admin, and one who has followed Bukkit for many years, this is what I'd say. First of all, the Bukkit team does do a great job, and they have done some of the stuff you're suggesting in the past. I can vouch that what TnT says is true -- that kind of "updating" doesn't really help. If you read somewhat between the lines throughout the forum, I think you'll come to the conclusion that if anyone's to blame, it's probably not the Bukkit team, but the *other* party in this ongoing, repeating sets of debacles (for example, all said party would have to do is NOT release an update until Bukkit is ready). It's a long complicated history, and I don't pretend to understand it, but it is what it is.

    As for the real issue -- what is it that we do with our frustrated players -- the answer is simple: They have to wait. You can argue, you can get mad, you can feel like throwing in the towel (I have felt in the past all of these things), but at the end of the day I've found all you end up doing in that process is wearing yourself out. Eventually, we've all had to accept that it is what it is. I fully sympathize with your frustration, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this broken record of de-synced updates is likely to continue until the end of Minecraft's time, haha, and really, eventually, you'll probably come to the same conclusion as me, which is that it's not really Bukkit's fault. I don't really know why circumstances are what they are, but ultimately I also don't care. It's just a matter of waiting it out, and that's what literally all of us have to do.

    As for the poser servers who want to jump the gun and "update" to 1.7 before Bukkit is ready, and hence undermine those of us who really understand how this all works, let's just hope they all literally crash and burn, because chances are, they will :)
     
    airwolf1 likes this.
  10. Offline

    Melody03

    Just to put this out there. If you guys were to open up about your process people would become familiar with it.

    I know it isn't how you mean it, but it kind of sounds like you are saying "You are far to dumb to understand what we do."

    The fact of the matter is that because you have a policy of complete silence, we have no chance of understanding what you do. If you were to be more open with your steps and processes people would come to be familiar with them. I've worked in situations where I've had to work together with technicians to accomplish goals. While I might not have ever gained a complete understanding of what they do, with time I came to understand many of the steps and processes that were being accomplished. I was able to have more understanding and became better able to anticipate and predict procedures. You need to give people more credit for being able to learn what you do. Even if it isn't the same ever time I would be willing to bet that there are steps to the process that are real indicators of progress. Don't underestimate people's ability to understand that, and to be understanding of problems that could occur.

    By assuming that we are to dumb to get it, you are robbing server owners of the ability to have any reference at all that could help them be prepared and to run their server smoothly through the updates.
     
    airwolf1 likes this.
  11. Offline

    Zankla

    I am really surprised at some of the negativity of people ... I can not be that way, I enjoy playing minecraft with my son, I use these as lessons in patients. I tell him get into the single player and learn about what is new. If you get bored then find something else to do. it is NOT bukkits responsibility to keep your gaming life satisfied.

    I get that many have LARGE servers and want to keep it as up to date as possible. But WOW if the people on your servers are so desperate for new minecraft release they have bigger issues than a new bukkit can fix.

    Seriously in the grand scheme of things this is STILL just a game meant for our spare time.

    I again want to THANK the ENTIRE Bukkit team and the thread moderators and Admins for All they do. GREAT JOB
     
  12. Offline

    mpmumau


    Zankla, the problem is that for we large server ops, it's not simply enjoyment: It's business. Some of us have money on the line while we wait. When Minecraft updates come, population drops, and when population drops, income drops. When income drops, we can't cover expenses and in order to keep our communities of sometimes 1000s of players in tact, we end up scraping the bottom of the barrel. For most people, Minecraft is a hobby, but for some of us it's a small business that requires TONS of work. Those of us who have spent 100s of hours in front of a Linux console trying to keep these things running tend to start to run into real financial problems with these delays. I am eternally grateful to Bukkit for all the work they have done and they always do. As I said in my earlier post, which I think got moderated or something, I for one don't think these sort of large-scale issues of confusion are due to Bukkit's fault. But I do totally get the frustration.
     
    airwolf1 likes this.
  13. Offline

    Robolord



    There is a large difference between asking questions about what you are doing then what we have now, we have no idea what you are doing. So the only question is: what are you doing and when are you done? If you post what you do questions can only lead no new insights and opinions. Everyone is nagging to you because you are completely silent. You literally post NOTHING about this project.

    I am indeed dismissing everything you stated because it makes no sence. There is a difference in questions about something we dont know ANYTHING about or question when we atleast have some scrap of information.

    You dont have to answer questions about your progress, just show your progress. It literally takes 1 minute a day to do it. Only one and you solve so much misunderstandings with it. How is it so hard for you to understand and do this?
     
  14. Offline

    Zankla

    I can understand that point ... but as a business man relying on a part of that business from a set of volunteers is going to be frustrating. I am not saying it is not a bad business just need to understand the full consequences of such a business. Understand this variable and be prepared for it. Understand the nature of Bukkit. Understand the warnings about the major code changes that were out ahead of this update and that Bukkit maybe longer in getting that release. I would love to run game servers for a business, I just don't have the knowledge of customer I would be going after (generational thing I suppose).

    I wish you the best with your server
     
  15. Offline

    mpmumau


    Yeah I 100% agree with you. Most of the server ops who have been doing this for a while do get it. The problem we always have is the players, who just *never* seem to understand, likewise, haha. The major demographic for Minecraft is like 14-year-old kids, who get bored in about 15 seconds, haha, so they don't really care that there are legit reasons for the delays. Again, it's not Bukkit's fault, and you're right about anticipating; I and my co-ops are *constantly* patrolling news about these updates. It just stinks for us, and that's why guys like Robo get mad. Personally, I've learned since running a server that the frustration is not helpful, haha, so I just do everything I can to bear down and take the brunt of it. We server ops, despite our frustration, do need to deeply appreciate the labor the Bukkit team puts into the work they do.

    Thanks for the well wishes, and I wish you the same!
     
    justcool393 likes this.
  16. Offline

    apes

    wow. you've possibly misinterpreted a few posts in the rush to make your position clear.
     
  17. Offline

    PolarCraft

    Okay. So what i am seeing is people getting more confused and angry that the 1.7.2 release is taking longer than excepted. That is due to the many minecraft updates and such. Bukkit dev's have to rewrite a lot of code that bypasses the naked eye. Most people don't code bukkit plugins nor look at any coding for bukkit. It is a lot of time and effort that is put into bukkit.(FYI: Bukkit is a hobby not a job) And let me say that the main devs of bukkit are being stressed a lot about 1.7.2. And for the fact that everyone complains about the update taking to long is just a mere fact of impatiences.
     
    lilacorn likes this.
  18. Offline

    Zankla

    You will be fine then ... you obviously have the right attitude and understand and expect this. And trust me no matter what your business is these days .. "unknown" variables are killing it, but this is not a political thread so I will leave it at that.

    Keep up the positive outlook and the constant looking ahead and you will do GREAT in what ever venture you take on
     
  19. Offline

    gabessdsp


    I know it doesn't work like that, I was just providing an example. Even if you said something like "We looked at Mojang's code today, having a meeting later to figure out what to do". Something like that, something that could even get tweeted every now and then. My example was meant for Bukkit to adjust it so that it would fit what they could say.
     
  20. Offline

    PolarCraft

    Most 14 year old's including my brother are not getting bored in 15 seconds. It is these little kids around 9-12 are complaining about servers not having 1.7.2 and they leave(then get banned for disrespect to server). Most people want a amazing server and want 1.7.2 you just have to say "We have to wait for bukkit to update to 1.7.2 please be patient".
     
  21. Offline

    mpmumau


    What you're trying to do is solve a technical problem with an emotional solution :) I understand the logic behind asking for updates, but truly, they aren't going to help. I would count myself as a pretty competent programmer, and even I wouldn't really understand what they're really doing, unless I deeply understood the Bukkit source itself (which, to be completely honest, I have no interest in attempting to understand; it would take weeks if not months to do so; and even if I did, I know that wouldn't make me *feel* better, haha).
     
  22. Offline

    Zankla


    Good Attitude :)
     
    happyhappy114 likes this.
  23. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Not at all. I've stated numerous times that the update process is fluid and can change between releases. Each step we take in updating may be revisited multiple times throughout the updating process. Its not a simple matter of stating we do X -> Y -> Z. Its more like X -> Ð -> Õ -> X -> Õ -> XZ, and that may very well change tomorrow. We know our community is very smart, but explaining our update process is counter productive.

    No step is finalized until after we have an update out. Even then, we often find mistakes we've made in the update process - hence not recommending people run a dev build unless they fully understand the risks. If we have to redo certain steps (which happens fairly often), its no indicator of progress at all, but rather just encourages more questions about what we do and second guessing our abilities. Nothing gets more demotivating than seeing post after post on the forums arguing about why that step had to be redone, and how a random community member can now do everything better than our team. I am not speculating on what may happen, I am stating what has happened in the past and why we do not provide an ETA or a progress report. Want to find a quick way to lose volunteers who spend countless hours on this project quit? You've found that formula.

    The Bukkit project is made up of real people who put real hours into a project and get a lot of grief for it, solely because they love to do it. Its not hard to drive people away by putting them in the line of fire for all the frustration and rage a community this large can produce. This is why I am here taking the brunt of this frustration instead of them, I am allowing them to work.

    If you refuse to have a discussion about this topic and would rather dismiss what I've stated then I have no further reason to respond to you. Good day sir.
     
  24. Offline

    gabessdsp


    A lot of people would stop yapping about updates if they actively showed us they were working on them more than saying "it'll be done when it is".
     
  25. Offline

    mpmumau


    As I said before, at least within my own interpretation of this saga through the years, you're better off directing that kind of criticism toward the other side of the ocean, as it's my opinion that that's probably where the problems truly begin :)
     
  26. Offline

    Robolord

    Again you are missing the point. It hardly matters in what kind of fashion you update bukkit. Its just as simple as saying, to the community you HAVE done one of these X -> Ð -> Õ -> X -> Õ -> XZ.

    It doesnt matter how you update, it doesnt matter how long it takes, it matters that the whole bukkit team is completely silent about what you are exactly doing and not telling anyone anything.
     
  27. Offline

    iSayCr4pAlot

    Guys, be patient. Trust me, i want it just as much as you do. I would even like progress updates on how the update is going. But heres the catch. Here you are, (some of you), making OVER $300 a day. Now, heres bukkit, working for free! Unless you actually donated to bukkit, quit rushing them, because you have no right to rush them at all, for a free service. IF you donated to bukkit, thats a (small) different story. If your that desperate, change the protocol code so players from 1.7.2 can join your 1.6.4 server, while expecting around 30 crashes a day, and not enjoying any of the 1.7.2 features. Ok?
     
  28. Offline

    mpmumau


    $300/day? Dang! Can I admin on YOUR server, haha? (Kidding...we make some money but not that much, haha). And just in the interest of fairness and transparency, I'm pretty sure Bukkit isn't working *literally* for free. They do at least have a donation button on their page. How well they do is anyone's guess, but I'd be pretty surprised if they make literally zero income.
     
    justcool393 likes this.
  29. Offline

    PolarCraft

    mpmumau And do not forget the ad revenue.
     
  30. Offline

    iSayCr4pAlot

    mpmumau Yes, bukkit is only making money from mainly donations. Not many people click the donate button though, just telling you.
     
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