Taking off the coat?

Discussion in 'Bukkit Help' started by Nijikokun, Feb 22, 2011.

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    A lot of the anger is probably misplaced. It's like when a kid gets a stepdad - he feels abandoned by his father, but directs his anger at the stepdad instead out of a sense of loyalty.
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    Hahahahahahahha. Best imitation ever.
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    Yay Nijikokun and yay me, I guess. :D

    Seriously, though, the development of BetterShop wouldn't have been half as painful for me if his source had been open. In fact I could have collaborated with him instead of competing with SimpleShop, but he wanted to retain complete control of the source and I can respect that. I'm just glad he was willing to release the source during his absence so that we can continue the legacy.

    Thanks for all the hard work, Niji. If you want to collaborate in the future on economy-related plugins, let me know!
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    well, hopefully bukkit will soon have it's own native permissions system and all of this infantile bickering can cease.
    until then i for one will continue to use and support plugins that use permissions 2.1
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    Wow, this is unexpected.. Well, i wish you luck. Thank you for the wonderful plugins. Good luck with everything else!

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    You will be missed Niji.
    I really hope this is not tied to more bukkit drama, as from the beginning my biggest hesitation with an investment in this project was the means in which it conducted itself at the administrative level. And while this conduct has been improved by many very capable and mature bukkit team members, it seems like there are all too many stupid users now demanding plugins and instant fixes. These users with unearned senses of entitlement are a cancer, and I do hope they are not to blame for your leaving. In the very least there are many like myself that truly appreciated your work, and perhaps if you return we will once more. Take it easy, man, you deserve it.
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    Niji, as a person who can do a little code but is not great at it, and someone who spends hours maintaining a private server, thank you for all your hard work. Enjoy your break and we will welcome you back if or when you choose.
  8. Thank you for your endless help on making iConomy's supply & demand work in hMod, it is still an amazing feature. Hope you'll be back soon with renewed energy.
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    should start charging for bukkit. You would solve a bunch of problems with this and yes I'm sure a bunch of you will bitch as well.

    Problem 1 solved: You reduce the number of bullshit servers hosted by kiddies on mommys 1995 laptop on dialup internet, you in turn raise the standard of a MC server, you populate these good servers and communities grow stronger. If you don't want to pay for a place to play, don't run a server, join one and be a valuable part of that community.

    Problem 2 solved: Devs will be less inclined to get burned out (or legally won't be able to in some cases) if a product is sold and income is coming for them.

    Problem 3: You will kill servers where owners pay little to nothing to run a server, yet charge fees / subscriptions to play there or have certain effects from plugin developers hard work. Key example would be a server that pays barely anything monthly for a hosting plan (if they even use a real server and not a PC at home) and charges 5$ for the TP command. With no expense, where does the money go? their pocket, they are essentially getting paid to install a server.exe file and some plugins with no overhead, or they pay very little for a shitty hosting plan and make tons of profit which does not go back into the server.

    Benefits, those who pay more, get more, just like the real world... If you start a business and run it out of a plywood box with a typerwriter for documentation, you will most likely get no customers or interest, because you look foolish. If you dump money into the business though, and buy a building (or rent) buy top of the line computers, buy a staff, get software for your computers that makes your job easier / more efficent, you are more inclined to get customers.

    I for one would pay for bukkit AND plugins if they were required to be paid for. I see no reason to give anything though when some kiddie schmuck can download the same crap for free and compete with me when I give out money to people.

    This is a reason I like F2P games with a marketplace. If you want to be 12 years old and play for free, you can, but I will dominate you with my wallet.

    Just a quick edit, if Nik would make all of his plugins payment required to gain access to, I would pay him much money, but I would need something saying that he will not release the updates for free.
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    Thanks for all your wonderful plugins Niji. Hope to see you again @ these Forums.
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    Well said sir.

    @Nijikokun : Take the time you need and remember there are those of us who truly appreciate your work. Never forget that.

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    Sorry to see you go... Thanks for all you have contributed!!!

    Good luck!
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    Agreed. It is always sad to see a plugin dev move away from the project.
    Bukkit reached critical mass a little while ago, and every type of internet user came out of the woodwork, including those you mention. I hope all devs (and Bukkit team members) grow a thick skin to deal with it, I think they'll need it.
    Bukkit will never cost money. The dev can put a donation link in his plugin threads/signature.
    Then you cut out a great deal of people from enjoying to host their own server, and push most admins to using a different server mod or wrapper. There are many others out there, hMod and Bukkit aren't the only ones.
    Have you donated any money to him? He has a donate link on his plugin. You don't need to purchase anything to support the dev.
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    If bukkit will never cost money, then that is why devs will get burned out. On the market now bukkit is the best server mod, much like hey0 was. Sure, some people used MCadmin or llamacraft for some essential type things, but nothing compared to hey0. What happened to hey0? He got burned out (and his team did too I guess since he did and it was "his mod" and they wanted their own. Lack of requirement of payment for use, means that there is no reason to pay or donate because nothing happens either way, and those that are 11 years old, can make just as good of a server as you with the tools you "paid" for.

    I guess a similiar example would be windows vs linux, i'd say 90% of the world (I did a project in college about window's history a year or so ago) and at that time it was ~ 93% of the world used windows, this is including businesses which almost always contract with dell which runs windows. Imagine if you could get windows for free from a site, while other users paid for the same thing, what sense would that make to ever spend a dime?

    I would pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for something exclusive to those who do the same. I will not pay for a freeware that I get the same support / abilities as a mooching kid would get for not donating or paying. To me it makes no sense.

    I have not donated specifically to Nik or anyone in bukkit, when I ran hey0 I donated for features to be added to hey0 and specific plugins run by hey0 that were added due to my donations. I request something and say I will pay you to do this, they do it and I pay them, granted, it is stupid that I pay for it to happen and others get to mooch, but that is how kids work.

    Who cares if you cut out most people from hosting their own server on their 256 ram pentium 1 CPU at home which has a total of 3 users ever online at one time? Does a server like that need bukkit? If they want to run a server and it is big and they don't want to pay, they can run vanilla, or they can find another option like you said. The best is not always available for everyone, not in the real world or in any game I've ever played.

    Go look at the popular game league of legends for example. If you want to play free, you can, but you get champions slower, you dont have access to skins, etc. If you pay, you can have every champion unlocked instantly, you can have any skins you want, and you can even boost exp gain. Who bitches the most about league of legends? The people who play for free, do not support the game, and expect to be just as well off as someone that does pay. Again, no logical sense in that reasoning at all... Where in the real world do you get equal to or more than someone who pays for something?

    You walk up to a vending machine and a guy is at one next to you, he puts in a dollar and gets a snack, you sit there furiously mashing buttons trying to get a snack but you can't because you didn't pay, you start to cry and demand a snack because it is your right and you walked there to that machine! I'd laugh if the machines had a "donate for snack" option and the default was here have a free snack. Would you ever pay a dime?

    So again, if bukkit remains the best wrapper and wants to actually do something with it long term, they should start charging. People will pay if it is the best, people will also pay more because it is exclusive.

    As a user you see a server running vanillia mode (didn't buy bukkit) and one running bukkit with 25 plugins all ehancing gameplay, what one do you as a player go to? I'd of course go to the bukkit one, because I'd enjoy things like protection and other fun features that bukkit plugins provide.

    If bukkit as a whole decides to not charge (which the community rep said) I'd hope more plugin makers would go into a pay to use route and make really fantastic plugins. I'd be honored to run some of the best plugins on my server that other people can't access due to being cheap.

    So yea, I am oh so heart broken that a mooch wouldn't be able to "enjoy hosting" their own server. Let them find some freeware while I get paid to use stuff that is 100x better than their freeware.

    I hope nik will let me hire him as a personal plugin mod, I'd love to have the only official version of Iconomy on my server.
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    I disagree. There are thousands of open source projects, just like Bukkit that keep getting used, and updated every day. Maybe a dev comes and goes, but the project lives on. A great many of these projects still have members of the original team. Money is not the only motivator for people. Working on a project as a labor of love can be vastly more gratifying than getting paid to work on something you'd rather not do. Getting paid for the project in no way means the devs will stick around any long than they would if they didn't get paid.

    I don't get paid and I'm very active on here. Getting paid to be here would more likely turn me off. I probably wouldn't be a member of this community at all if it was closed source and required payment. Heck, most of this community wouldn't exist, nor would those that current develop on it continue to do so. Remember, it was their choice, right from the start, to do this as an open source project.

    I could go on point by point here, but suffice it to say, I disagree with your entire post.

    Anyone who chooses to run Ubuntu for free gets exactly the same product as those who pay to run it. You can pay to get official support, but you can still run the same project for free if you put the time and effort into learning it.

    Umm, this is freeware. I'm fairly certain the devs try their best to make the best possible product for us to use already. Paying them anything won't improve the quality of the product. Microsoft gets paid a lot of money and they've still put out some really significant duds. Money doesn't solve everything.
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    Multiple flavors of Linux are proof of this :)
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    I was speaking hypothetically at the end there TNT, I am aware bukkit is freeware. What I'm saying is, if there was "Donut" as a new wrapper, that was better than bukkit, had people making plugins for it etc, and the "Donut" wrapper cost 20$ to purchase, and each plugin you got for "Donut" cost 5$ to purchase, I would move there in a second. Not so much because the service / product would necessarily be better, but because my server would now be exclusive.

    I personally pay 200$ a month for my server from jestservers.com yes they are slightly higher priced than a dedicated server (I only pay for a game server on a dedi server I do not have root access) but the customer support is fantastic, the quality is fantastic, (better than most if not all servers I've played on) and I got what I wanted and was fine paying a little more. I could have simply put a server.exe on my laptop with 6 gigs of ram, a quad core processor, etc and dealt with slower network speeds, but I wanted something good.

    If I could couple that with having the best mod out there, that actually charges for their work so that everyone and their dog didn't have it, I'd do it for exclusivity.

    I guess you just don't agree with the way I view things, and that is fine, not everyone shares the same opinions. But if I wanted to just do what everyone else did, I wouldn't have my own server, I'd go join one and save myself money. If I'm going to pay for something though, I'd like it to be different and better.

    So if nik was getting burned out due to the constant bitching by freebies and only got 5$ of donations in 6 months, perhaps he would like to do some exclusive work.
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    The day you start charging for Bukkit is the day you will see its death.
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    The difference is people don't make thousands of dollars off of a free operating system by just running it on their computer, with no effort put in from there.

    Freebies run a server for free, get a mod for free, get plugins for free and then cash in and put the donated money into their college fund or their mcdonalds wallet. I feel that charging for things from the bukkit perspective would stop that somewhat, and make it so that the good servers that use bukkit, can make money for server support.

    I personally have donation packages, and 100% of that money goes into paying for my server, vent, forums and donations to plugin authors (hey0 era) and any other server issues. I do not pocket any of my donation money. I now get to run a successful server for "free" essentially (though I'm still ~ -600 from the initial purchase) but it has been paying for itself since then, due to players donating to play there. I don't play minecraft to profit like some do (key word is play) but if I wrote every application on my server, I'd expect to be paid for it, pay like make money, not stabalize the bill.

    So again, looking for dedicated programmers.
    --- merged: Feb 24, 2011 6:10 PM ---
    death from who? rofl. Death from people who want everything in life for free because mommy is still paying their bills? cool, go torrent some more games and movies.
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    @kyxoan most people don't have as much disposable income as you apparently have
    I run Bukkit on a dedicated server at home for friends and family. I only have around a dozen users, so I don't need to /waste/ (imho) $200/mo when my server is more than enough already.
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    exactly and with friends and family, you don't need near the amount of plugins / devices a large public server would need. As TNT said, there are other wrappers / mods. If Bukkit was paid for, you could most likely still have your server for your friends and family for free, while the large servers that require more could pay for more.
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    I am just going to ignore that childish comment. What makes you think that people will automatically donate to Bukkit just because it does a good job at hosting Minecraft servers? There are plenty other server hosting solutions in MC (McMyAdmin and variations of hey0). Then think about those who run servers large enough to generate enough revenue to have a positive return. That goes right back into their heavy fixed investment in whatever they run (servers, sites and the like).

    Please do show me statistical analysis of the correlation between those who use Bukkit and those who make a sizable donation amount. I will guarantee you that a majority of those who play Minecraft are under the age of 18, which further indicates that they are most likely not financially independent and therefore less likely to donate. While I do appreciate you immediately come to conclusion based on one simple sentence, I also suggest that you think before you speak.

    Forced payment will carve the community into one that has a better understanding of Bukkit and how it works, but will also restrict the wide exposure and popularity that it has today.
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    And a very well deserved one. If it's not because of everybody leaving (more than likely) then Notch & Co. will probably not look as kindly on it anymore - you can be pretty sure they'd be pretty pissed.
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    Further, charging for bukkit will just mean that only those people charging for play on their servers will be running servers, and have NO competition from free servers anymore. Shit, I'd pay for a bukkit license just to cash in on that money cow.
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    @kyxoan I think you really just don't understand how much community in and of itself can mean to many developers. I own a Virtual Pet Site (think Neopets) that is currently generating no income whatsoever. I run it because I enjoy it. I took up the project originally to make money, but found that the community itself was far greater motivation.
    --- merged: Feb 24, 2011 6:34 PM ---
    Fewer public servers and more private servers does NOT change the ratio of crap to quality. There's just as many crap private servers.
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    to all those saying anything other than permissions is a rip off, guess no one remembers groupusers..
    Gotta move on to what works folks.. I loved his plugins like everyone else, but in the end, its about keeping your server running and your users happy.
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    I would gladly pay for a premium plugin, for those hard earned work done and taken care of with decent updates from time to time.

    Bukkit charging sounds too obsurd, its a freeware option like Hey0's, but if a Developer wanted payment for a very nice plugin (of course at a decent rate) I would totally buy it.
    MobileAdmin from Android does this, has a free version and a paid version. While not so much a plugin, he kept it free for the sake of Bukkit, but the paid version offers a little more. I will buy it soon. Only because its a dedicated and decent plugin for admins who aren't at the computer.
    ^ If a plugin had some sort of free/paid offer(s), I would likely pay for it after trying the free brand.

    But then again, everyone has their own opinions.
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    Bukkit couldn't charge anyway, it would be infringement on Mojang's software, so really this whole thing is moot
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    I would pay a low-to-moderate amount for some increased... assurances, that things won't just be dropped or abandoned, but I don't think the majority of MC users could or would. I realize that's half your point ("get rid of the rubbish"), but I also see how that goes against the whole "MC is FUN!" thing.

    It also feels really premature to even discuss this when MC itself is in such flux, and when they do finally get around to adding the built-in server plugin support... thing, all of this could break horribly anyway. It might not even be possible to fix many of these plugins and there's nothing assuring about that.
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    Sad to see you stop but I fully understand where you're coming from.

    What burnt me out in the past was all the support I needed to provide when I released open source projects. I am bit older (wiser? who knows) and very hesitant to release anything else because of all the time and cost required to maintain it.

    I love to contribute to projects but I don't want to be in the position to have to deal with hundreds of people unable to read simple instructions and go into rage every time something breaks. People leech off other's time and effort and feel entitled to bitch and moan at every little issue, with no consideration for the people who made the stuff in the first place.

    So this is why I will gladly spend time helping people with their coding question or devs track down bugs but have no interest in releasing my own plugins to the unwashed masses. Consider this approach if you still love programming!
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