Public Announcement for [Permissions]

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by Nijikokun, Aug 25, 2011.

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  1. Offline

    Nijikokun

    Stop using Permissions

    I will begin deleting all jar files that relate to Permissions 1 - 3, and hopefully (this may or may not happen, and I don't really care if it's a bad move, it's worse to leave this issue around) create a way to block the permissions plugin from even loading, very soon. Permissions was a temporary solution to a problem that has gone out of control.

    Yes I have made threads on this subject so I'm not going too far into the details, the point is. Please migrate to SuperPerms immediately so that you are not left in the dark and when the upgrade time comes you are complaining.

    This is a pre-immenent warning.

    Please follow the following directions:

    1. Convert to bPermissions or another plugin that supports Superperms. I don't care as long as it isn't Permissions.
    2. Delete the jar file, and if anyone asks you for support on Permissions, Ignore them kindly or direct them to this thread.

    Conversion to PEX
    https://github.com/t3hk0d3/PermissionsEx/wiki/Migrate-from-Permissions

    Conversion to bPermissions
    It should work. Have fun.
     
    Don Redhorse, MiHo, fysics and 3 others like this.
  2. Offline

    tips48

    Thank god :p Permissions was good while it was needed, and you have done a amazing job on it.
     
  3. Offline

    Geoff Winans

    While Permissions needs to die, the above quote is a very slippery slope. Many servers depend on and will continue to depend on it for some time. Let it die a natural death. It will.

    Forcing its death and potentially causing downtime for live servers is a great way to get a lot of really pissed off people crawling up your ass.

    I want permissions dead, but until some plugins I use switch, I have no choice (and removing said plugins doesn't fall within the realm of "choice").
     
    Wakko, Kohle, Taranis01 and 1 other person like this.
  4. Offline

    Lunar Delta

    While I agree with the overall sentiment, forcing Permissions to not load is entirely unacceptable. It is not your place to decide such a thing, and it could seriously inconvenience hundreds, possibly even thousands of live production servers.

    Think these kinds of things out, please. Reactionary stuff like this helps no one.
     
    Wakko and andrewkm like this.
  5. Offline

    Thaorn

    Sorry, but so, we've to change for the official PermissionsBukkit or for PEX? What's the best? Why?

    By the way, thank you for everything you do and you code. Congrats !
     
  6. PEX is the easiest for me, and the most similar to Permissions.
     
  7. Offline

    cholo71796

    I have a feeling that Niji doesn't care, heheh
     
    Kohle and tips48 like this.
  8. Offline

    Nijikokun

    hence me posting the announcement.
     
  9. Will this effect the Permissions bridge in PEX?
     
  10. Offline

    Nijikokun

    No, It just won't be used as much?
     
  11. Offline

    Geoff Winans

    Understood. Still not his place to force change.
     
  12. Its not just him, I'm sure many of the bukkit developers agree.
     
  13. Offline

    stkeroro

    its simply, make a tool to convert permission 3.x to permissionbukkit, and be compatible with old permissions plugins. We (server admins) dont have time to convert our HUGE files manually.
     
    Wakko likes this.
  14. Offline

    Celeixen

    Thanks its sad to say goodbye to permissions but PEX looks really good and the command system is similar if not better then groupmanagers
     
  15. Offline

    ledhead900

    God damn it.
    I shall re distribute it myself then.

    I think superperms if bloody horse shit and I'm not the only server admin who thinks so. I'm also willing to bet that a lot of users would still use this system over superperms.

    It's open source so at most you can announce that u will stop supporting it and remove your own links but that is not going to stop dedicated supporters like me from fixing it and fighting to revive it.

    There is not a single system out for superperms that is as stable or has any documents sorrounding it's use I would like to point out that PEX is probably one of the worst of the bunch in terms of performance.

    I have 100% no intention to use superperms If I have to I will make a converter bridge superperms back to this system that is how much I hate the system.

    I don't want a converter to superperms as and I refuse to use a bridge I know for fact some plugins are not going to move to superperms and these plugin I still intend to keep but I'm not going to turn my server config in a mix bag of jokes by mixing * nodes with superperm what a god damn mess that will that make.

    It's too late bukkit it's too late we asked for a system that should have been in place on DAY 1 not now and we certainly did want an API well maybe not all of us but I did not expect to use third-party plugins for a BUILT in system the system should have functioned without any assistance from plugins. I can't even express how pissed of I am about superperm becoming the IN thing without going into an ALL CAPS RAGE.

    That and some of us more caring think superperms is more crap then good, and don't anyone tell me to use a superperms bridge that is never going to happen not now not ever I will not turn my server into a frankenstien mockery.

    I don't know why anyone is keen on this new system it lacks support for almost everytihng we took for granted until now. Easy multiworld config cloneing, Preffix and suffix

    Perms 3x only needed MYSQL support and some tiny bit of love.
     
    Mrchasez, Wakko and Kohle like this.
  16. Offline

    Lunar Delta

    Wow. This post is dripping so heavily with ignorance I don't even know where to begin.

    Tell me, why are SuperPerms bloody horse shit? It is merely a system built into Bukkit to determine if a player has a certain permission (or permissions). It is simple, to the point, and does exactly what it needs to do and nothing more. What could be wrong with that? If you have any problems with it, the problem is not with SuperPerms itself, but with the plugin that implements and manages it. If you don't like one of them, try another. You have PEX, BukkitPerms, and bPermissions. I am sure one of them will fit your needs

    Fighting to revive it is not only phenomenally stupid, but also a losing battle. Plugin devs are making a concerted effort to phase out support for Permissions, and with good reason. It is the past, and it is no longer necessary. It served its purpose while it needed to (and often in a very mediocre manner) and now it is no longer needed. Any attempt to revive it will result in utter failure. Nobody will support it, and nobody will help you.

    As for stability, I have no idea what you are talking about. I switched to PEX and everything worked on the first try, and has worked flawlessly ever since. You simply have no idea what you are talking about with your reference to its performance. Did you try to run it on a Commodore 64 or something? Its documentation is also perfectly fine, and explains all the commands and procedures in detail. It took my less than half an hour to manually port my entire GroupManager configuration over, following the instructions provided.

    If you have no intention of using SuperPerms, I suggest you simply shut down your server, because soon enough, all new plugins will be out of your reach. Trying to root yourself into the past is a huge disservice to your users. They deserve someone who knows how to manage and administrate with more effectiveness and wisdom. All of your arguments seem to stem from an irrational fear and hatred of change rather than any rational reason for disliking SuperPerms (there are virtually none), so I don't think anyone who reads your post could possibly take you seriously.
     
    Bios Element and Daniel Heppner like this.
  17. Offline

    ledhead900

    I think not, yea I am ignorant all right but Imo it's just same old same old Hmod vs Bukkit crap, For the record I got my information from unnamed developers from the likes of Heroes plugins and Citizens and some from paid server hosts and admins working on them.

    It's not the same thing not even close it does not do what it should have done, It should have replaced the need for a plugin to start with and it does not so your entire argument about that is moot, It should have supported Multiworld config cloning again it does not, Layout wise fine I will admit I'm not fan and never will be of how it defines parent and child it's just silly. I won't have to kiss my server goodbye I will just have some work cut out for me to create a backwards converter to make the superperms go back to * nodes. Don't think for a second I have not been reading around and all I see is a lot of ppl having nothing but issues setting this up. Actually why am I even arguing about this I can use what ever I want without being forced to conform to a certain standard of system, It's not a mature system if you want to win a vote for systems actually present to me a system that does not require any other plugins to function and has simple multiworld config clone built-in and suffix and preffix support with out plugin use as well.

    That is what I expected to see after so long of waiting, Do I even need to keep pointing out that Hmod had a system in place from day 1 that to me says it all. All that is going on now is another fight over " My systems better than yours" just like we had until 2x become basically standardized. I'm not worried about my server you should be, you're the one using largely un tested software that lacks a lot of support right now. I'm not going to judge the future but I will not move to this new system until I really need have to.

    bah I've had enough explaining my reasons to hate it why don't you just go and compare opinions and the facts for your self.

    I'm allowed to hate it if I want too I don't have to like it like you do. Anyway I got my most of rage out about the move so I guess I'm done bitching about it and will just wait until Its made more progress than think about it some more. Nice chat tho
     
  18. Offline

    Lunar Delta

    PEX supports multiworld cloning, as well as prefixes and suffixes.

    I will just ignore the untested and lacking support comment. PEX is fully supported, and I know from my own personal experience that it works flawlessly for me. All 50+ of my plugins work, the older ones and the ones that use SuperPerms. I simply add the permission nodes like normal. Nothing in my routine has changed at all, and I have the satisfaction of knowing that my server has been future-proofed without the overhead and waste of time involved in creating a back-converter. Why put yourself through that when simply taking a deep breath, reading carefully, and switching over would be so much easier? I have done it. Others have done it. When done properly it is quite simple and will work on the first try, or very close to it.
     
  19. Offline

    ledhead900

    I'm sorry to rage man its just fustrating they throw this shit on me now when it should have be done before bukkit even released. I understand your side I admit I never really looked to deep into bukkits but I still dont like the parent and child setup stuff.

    I'll take a a look at PEX later I guess but I just don't want to install any sort of bridge plugin as a lot plugins still work with the neweer bukkit builds but I don't want to mix superperms and the old system thats just bad and un-tidy.

    Normally I don't rage like a school girl but just ton of pressure on RL stuff and adminstration srsly its hard work and it never ends last thing I wanted to do was swap permissions systems :p

    Edit:

    Cheers dude ur rant vs my rant made me read some stuff about bukkit perms and PEX seems ok I just have to downgrade my permisisons to 2x again thats all. Apprently it will work with both bukkits nodes and 2x nodes with the * with out any bridge.

    Thats nice I just heard bad things like a nasty bug in past that randomly ranked users out of the blue just beofore 3x was around.
     
  20. Offline

    Lunar Delta

    Having to use a bridge will be a fact of life when you are using older plugins that have a near-zero chance of being updated to work with SuperPerms. PEX includes a compatibility plugin for using plugins that support Permissions 2.7.4. All of my older plugins work flawlessly this way. When when adding a permission node for a plugin that uses SuperPerms, you simply use a command to add the node like normal. When you look at the permissions file itself, you can't even tell which is which. It all flows together seamlessly.

    Also, the Parent-Child setup stuff is completely optional. Personally, I don't bother with any of that. I just add the nodes I need and go.
     
  21. Offline

    Kohle

    +1
     
  22. Offline

    Lunar Delta

    As a plugin dev, (especially as a plugin dev) you should be grateful for SuperPerms. Now, instead of having to support multiple, sometimes conflicting Permissions standards, there is one standard which can be implemented with a single line of code, which will always be the same now and forever and regardless of which SuperPerms management plugin the user is using. What more could you ask for? Giving props to the opening post, especially being in the position you are in, just speaks of sheer willful ignorance.

    Tell me, would you rather have to perform the delicate juggling act of trying to support multiple permissions systems, or a single system that is poorly developed and bug ridden (e.g. P3)?
     
    Bios Element and Daniel Heppner like this.
  23. Offline

    aPunch

    This is what boggles my mind. Plugin developers all around are voicing their hatred for superperms when they should be the ones all for it. I assume that those developers who disapprove of superperms are also server admins who are against the idea of switching over their current system to the new one.
     
  24. Offline

    M1sT3rM4n

    In the current state there are still multiple versions of the exact same plugin that function quite similarly in the plugin release section, so I think your argument has been nulled :p
     
  25. Offline

    jtripled

    No, because with SuperPerms a developer does not ever have any reason to bother finding out what permissions plugin is being used. It is all exactly the same to the developer.
     
  26. Offline

    M1sT3rM4n

    Good luck trying to force everyone to use the same permission system, unless Bukkit mandate that all devs use SuperPerm hooks.
     
    Wakko likes this.
  27. Offline

    ledhead900

    That was what I also was trying to say and that is partially the reason so many disapprove of the way this was implemented. See the issue is someone created a system others did not like it, Someone else says well I will do one better, then someone else does not like it, Then bukkit go and do the same thing creating a new system not a standardized system.

    Developers and admins wanted/needed a SYSTEM STANDARD not another "new system" that is left up to developers to decided if they want or do want to hook into it. I think it would be fair to say that everyone would have been happy if superperms and P3's Core were combined and built into the bukkits API and bukkit just maintained the permissions with no extra developer plugins needed just like back in Hmod. This way You get to decided how u code the plugin it will no longer matter if it is ymal, mysql,sqlite, Superperms,P2,P3.

    The API for all of those would be already built into the SINGLE system. This way plugins do not have change or update anything for the new system at all, users need only move the current configs to the bukkits permissions folder and maybe do some minor formatting tweaks.

    Then every single permissions plugin can die off as no longer needed as all you ever need to choose from are built directly into bukkits single consolidated system. The other half of what probably annoyed a lot of people is that personally I don't recall any discussion of what everyone wanted in a system no one really had a say in how it turned out it was just shoved on us and left for us all the ponder over and eventually fight over like is now happening.

    When the solution was to take what existed and combine that with your own design and build it all into the craftbukkit core as part of the stuff that gets installed with craftbukkit then at later times developers could design their own systems that could then be requested to be added to bukkits API. One single format, one layout, one system that did it all.

    That would have been something I'd have accepted to move to but instead all we got was the same old same old another new fish in pond trying to make a name for it self.

    Facts need to be faced not everyone is going to agree with a SINGLE system but a system that is open to change while keeping 100% backwards computability well that is a different story, the API would need only contain all of the hooks to run any system it supported users could then pick the layout and everything else associated with the config setup they prefered to use. Some people might just want to keep the config exactly how they are now they could have done that if this was the kind of system that was designed.

    A modular system that accepted any of the currently used formats and setup designs that could also have been added to in future. Of course that would have been a lot of work for bukkit team so my best guess is that in order to speed up the release and give us something steps were skipped and this the current bukkit system is what we got instead of what we expected.

    Be honest now how many of you went from :D to :( when you read that it was just an API and not a end all solution.
     
  28. Offline

    Lunar Delta

    @M1sT3rM4n

    There is no mandate per se, but most developers are making a concerted effort completely remove all non-superperms support from their plugins. It's only a matter of time before everyone is using SuperPerms.

    @ledhead900

    That kind of reasoning misses one of the main points of the Bukkit project. One of the goals of Craftbukkit is to not contain anything at all, by itself, that isn't absolutely necessary to run a server. Bundling something as complex (and terribly buggy and inefficient) as Permissions 3 into the main .jar would have been completely against the stated aims of the project and a terrible idea in general. SuperPerms keeps it as simple as possible by doing one thing: checking if a user has a permission. Yes or no? Other details like what commands to use, whether to use MySQL or flat files, implementation of prefixes and suffixes, and the like can and should be handled by plugins, which is what SuperPerms allows for. Right now, one can choose between PEX, bPermissions, or PermissionsBukkit. They all differ in the details of how they function, except for the fact that they all are SuperPerms management plugins.

    I am sure between these 3 there is something for most everyone, and if there isn't, someone will write a better one. But the point is that if that happens, ALL plugins that support SuperPerms will work with all of them with no changes and flawlessly on the first try. Only their implementation and management strategies will differ. In that sense, the core is the system IS standardized.

    This kind of setup is actually better, because then users can have their choice of exactly how they want their personal setup to be. Some people prefer the minimalist structure of PermissionsBukkit, while others (myself included) prefer the power and versatility of something like PEX, with MySQL support and such. But regardless of which one they choose, they can feel safe in the knowledge that no matter what, any plugin, now or in the future, that supports SuperPerms will be compatible with it, with all of them, and with any that will be.
     
  29. Offline

    ledhead900

    That is what about the only thing I agreed with about the new API and why I said PEX does not look so bad now its the only one that sort of in a plugin way combines the 3x format with superperms and thats really all I want was to not have to re structure everything and go around mixing node types. I don't understand how P3 is buggy tho ppl complained about it only due to the global configs stuff that any real admin stayed well away from knowing it would cause an issue.

    Tho by everyone using Superperms you mean everyone who cares or wants to use it so the issue is not really resolved.
     
  30. Offline

    Lunar Delta

    The Permissions 3 thread was chock-full of nothing but bug report after bug report, complaint after complaint. Personally, I never could get it working properly. Most of my plugins simply would not function with it. And don't forget the Read Time Out issue!

    As for SuperPerms, I would not worry about 'resolving' the issue. It will work itself out in time, which is why I disagree with Nijikokun's utterly invasive and borderline malicious desire to force peoples Permissions plugins to cease functioning. That kind of action, that kind of attitude is utterly unacceptable and reprehensible.
     
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