Suggestion New Section (Java Development)

Discussion in 'Forum Feedback' started by Mrs. bwfctower, Dec 9, 2015.

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  1. Offline

    Mrs. bwfctower

    Many of the threads in the plugin development section have absolutely nothing to do with the Bukkit API other than the fact that the API is being used. Users who post these threads are constantly told "learn java here <link>" or just "learn java before using the Bukkit API." If you just look through the most recent threads, I'd take a guess that at least 50% of them are issues pertaining to Java.

    @Zombie_Striker suggested that we create a new forum section (https://bukkit.org/threads/sticky-easily-avoidable-issues.396766/#post-3286757) and @teej107 has also made the suggestion in the past, but was told that there wasn't enough demand for something like that.

    Seeing that most of the threads are related to Java, wouldn't it be beneficial to the forums to have a new section dedicated to these problems with Java? Instead of telling people to go elsewhere to learn Java, and join another forums to get help with it, we can do it here!

    Just wondering what people think of this idea, and whether or not it would be supported more now than when @teej107 suggested it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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  2. Offline

    teej107

    @Mrs. bwfctower I have not been as active as I was in the past but a lot of posts that I still see are still related to Bukkit. The problem is that the OP does not take the time to learn the language first. While many problems could be solved if the OP knew sufficient Java, their problem is still Bukkit related. There are a few that I've seen where the thread does have nothing to do with Bukkit at all and I just report those to be moved to Offtopic. As much as I like the idea of a Java thread, I do have to agree that if there isn't enough demand for it, then one shouldn't be created. If we were to start moving threads from the Plugin Dev section to the Java section then maybe the OP might take the hint. Bukkit related or not:p
     
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    Mrs. bwfctower

    @teej107 Well those threads that are "Bukkit related" I think is where we differ in opinion. If somebody has, say a Collection storing Players, that they never initialize and get an error because of it, would you call that a Bukkit related issue?

    I would call it a Java issue, because a very similar problem can be created without using the Bukkit API. If somebody is thinking that the first element in an array has an index of 1, I would call that a Java issue. However, if somebody is trying to check that a command is a specific command in an overriden onCommand method, and are using the last parameter (String[] args) to check it, I would call that a Bukkit issue because it purely relies on how the Bukkit API is supposed to be used and how it works.
     
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    teej107

    That's a bad example IMO. Lets say if the OPs code looks as if BCBlowz wrote it. I would move that to the Java section.
     
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    timtower Moderator Moderator

    @Mrs. bwfctower Then you come to the point: where do we draw the line.
    Because as teej107 already said: some Bukkit issues can be fixed with more java knowledge.
    And others are just plain java issue with Bukkit involved.

    Yet it is an error that good developers also still make, they just find it before they make a thread about it.
     
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    Mrs. bwfctower

    @timtower I agree. Bukkit issues can be fixed with more java knowledge. But this section would serve to widen the scope of the issues that can be fixed, and instead of people having to go elsewhere to help when they are first learning Java. People would be able to get help learning Java here, instead of just being told to read tutorials where they'd have to fix it all themselves.
     
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    timtower Moderator Moderator

    @Mrs. bwfctower Fixing things yourself with guidance is a better way to learn though.
    I doubt that there will be a new section for it though, requires loads of threads moved.
    Why not a tag in front of it? Like the question, bug, and another one in the Bukkit help section, and suggestion on here?
     
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    Necrodoom_V2

    Against it. If its a general problem not related to bukkit, offtopic works good enough. If its related to bukkit, then a good java knowledge level is required to start with.
     
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  9. Offline

    Mrs. bwfctower

    And then instead of being sent to learn it and get help with general Java elsewhere, they have an actual place to get help without being told to leave the forums and come back once they know Java.
     
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    Necrodoom_V2

    We cant teach them Java from the ground up. The most we can do is link people to Java tutorials to put them in the right direction to learn. If they refuse to learn and want to code using Bukkit without knowing Java, i dont see what help we could provide them that isnt spoon feeding them code to their Bukkit project.
     
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    Mrs. bwfctower

    If they refuse to learn and want to code using Bukkit without knowing Java, i dont see what help we could provide them that isnt spoon feeding them code to their Bukkit project.[/QUOTE]
    Ah, there's the miscommunication. Since they are learning Java, there generally won't be projects with Bukkit plugins in the Java section. It's for while they are learning, so that if they can't figure something out and need a hand, they have a place here to get it.

    Also, we're not going to teach them Java. They are going to follow tutorials or read books, etc, and if they have an issue, they can make a thread and get help fixing it.

    Right now, that's true. But if there is a new section, they can make a thread asking why something has a certain outcome, or why something isn't working. And get help.
     
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    Necrodoom_V2

    Oh, i see what you mean. Though i dont think it would end up being used in that way considering the state of Plugin Development. Most people come for their bukkit plugin and thats it.
     
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    teej107

    I feel like a majority of people don't care about Java in general. They only care about Bukkit.
    If I see a person that clearly doesn't know enough Java, then I link to a Java tutorial pertaining to their problem. Other people however are far too nice for the OPs own good.

    If I do see a thread that has no signs of Bukkit in it, then I do request it to be in the Offtopic section.
     
  14. Offline

    Mrs. bwfctower

    I guess it would also encourage people (hopefully) to start learning Java, as they have a place to go to ask help.
    Which could be requested to go to the Java section.
     
  15. Offline

    teej107

    But why make a new section when another section handles it fine? It's not often that I request a thread to be moved from Plugin Dev to Offtopic. If anything, the Java thread should go in the Others category where Offtopic is also. For a Java section to be made, you need to have some guidelines of what qualifies a thread that still has Bukkit things in it to be moved to a Java thread. Like Timtower said
     
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    mcdorli

    Somewhere between "plugin.yml errors" and "How to use HashMap" would be the best. The downside is a thread could move in and out from this section, because e.g. the OP asks for how to make cooldown in bukkit, somebody suggests, to use hashMaps, and store the cooldown with the player's uuid in it, but the OP doesn't know, how to use a hashmap.
     
  17. Offline

    Mrs. bwfctower

    When the same issue would be created if you stripped an issue from using the Bukkit API.
    Yes. I agree with that.
    Well the line hasn't really been defined. If there was a section for Java, more threads would move there. Right now, you think "is this thread related enough to the Bukkit API to not be in offtopic", but with a Java section you would think "is this thread far away enough from the Bukkit API to be in the Java section."
     
  18. Offline

    teej107

    That can apply to everything and any API :p Of course an issue wouldn't be an API issue if you stripped the API part from it. You need to go more in-depth on that answer
    this would lessen the need if we had this:
    https://bukkit.org/threads/unsticky-ing-unneccessary-stickies.395814/#post-3281010.
     
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  19. Offline

    Mrs. bwfctower

    I guess if they are using the API incorrectly, like thinking that the command is included in the arguments. Not sure how to word it.
    Still love that idea.
     
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    mrCookieSlime Retired Staff

    @Mrs. bwfctower
    This Idea isn't new to be honest.
    It has been brought to our attention several times before.

    I can see that you think we should segregate between Questions related to the Bukkit API and Java itself,
    however as @timtower mentioned before: Segregating thoughs is not as easy as you would think.
    Since Bukkit's API utilises Java, technically every Bukkit-related Question is always related to Java.
    Now, also what if someone has a Question about a Plugin API like Vault for example.

    Is it Bukkit related?
    Is it Java related?
    Actually both, where would you put this stuff into?

    You would need a third Category. Something like "Plugin Development" cough
    As you can see there is such a large variety of Relations a Development-related Question could relate to, segregating those would be just a hassle, especially itd be very time-consuming for us Moderators as I can guarantee you that roughly 80% of all Users wont be able to determine the difference between a Java or Bukkit related Question anyway.
    To me this seems like unneccessary work for all of us, Java-related Questions already fit to the Plugin Development Section if they are related to Plugin Development.
    General Java Questions which take place outside of the Bukkit API still have a place to call home anyway, the Offtopic Section.
     
  21. Offline

    Mrs. bwfctower

    As mentioned in the OP
    I would like of it (kind of) like an offtopic of the plugin section. If it doesn't relate to Bukkit, it goes there. If it does relate to Bukkit, even though it obviously also relates to Java, it would go in the Bukkit section. If it utilizes an API contained in a Bukkit plugin, it would go in the Bukkit section.
    To you, does that just mean they are using the Bukkit API in some manner, even if the issue at hand has nothing to do with it?


    Very good points. My side is changed. Against this idea. Strikethough'd OP.
     
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