Mojang and the Bukkit Project

Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.

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    SO so so so much this ^

    As someone who has been with Minecraft from Alpha, it is extremely disheartening to read the COO saying that they don't have the time nor the obligation to do something for the community. I am not taking sides in this thing, as I just want 1.8 on my server. But the only reason Mojang exists is because people spent their hard-earned money to prop them up. Everything they've been able to accomplish since Minecraft can be traced back to the money they received during Minecraft's development. I'm willing to bet a fair amount of the people who helped fund Minecraft during that time are contributors to Bukkit and to the multiplayer community to this day. Regardless if it is directly or indirectly, Mojang has hurt the community that helped create them right now by not being upfront with us from the beginning. If you are going to create a community around something, and that community creates something that you decide to purchase, the least you can do is be upfront with it and tell them what you are doing. Mojang may have had the community's best interests in mind, but this backfired on them in a big way, and I would have rather seen an apology for this deception, rather than excuses.

    With that said, the only reason I use Bukkit/CraftBukkit is because vanilla lacks the required tools necessary to run a server in a safe way. There are a litany of tools I had to get through using Bukkit/CraftBukkit BECAUSE they are not part of the vanilla experience. If Mojang wants Minecraft to have a multiplayer community, while also not being involved with the mod scene, they either need to put some effort into giving us the features we need in Vanilla, or do whatever it takes to fix this ridiculous chain of events that lead up to the DMCA. While they're at it, they can help get CraftBukkit 1.8 out as an apology. :D
  2. You should add A), B) and C), for things like "emotionally", "born to be" and "pretty sure about it all", to make things more clear :p.
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    Why would you be supporting Wolfe's decision? Why would ANYONE here be?? It's seriously beyond me. I think a lot of people here are mixing up legal support with moral support. Sure, if you believe Wolfe is in his rights to do this, I could sympathize with that. But guess what, legal matters aren't (well, ideally) decided on how much support one side gets. They are decided on law. Wolfe will get what he wants if he is indeed right within the law, whether it rustles your jimmies or not.

    But all this Mojang hate is implying a moral support for Wolfe's decision. And how could that be??? He is single-handedly taking down a huge project that Mojang has done nothing but try to save. Single-handedly. Dinnerbone has what, 6x more code of his in Bukkit, and he left it in there *gasp* when he left? Wolfe is only the 5th most contributor? Even EvilSeph is OK with Mojang taking ownership (not taking over completely!) over the update to 1.8. Who cares, business as usual afterwards. Oh what? Bring it all down for Wolfe? Alright, worth.

    Minecraft would be nowhere without Bukkit? Bukkit would be nowhere without plugins. But screw all those people who made the plugins we love, and all the future plugins we could love. Wolfe don't want it no mo'. Worth.

    Mojang did nothing to attack this project. They have owned it for two years, and have done literally nothing (which admittedly has both benefited and hindered Bukkit). Who cares????? Wolfe just did something he should have done after Mojang attacked the ownership of the project. As far as it stands now, Mojang has literally done nothing to interrupt normal operation of the project since two years ago except try to save it from failure. And they have never tried to capitalize on it. But screw it, this must be their fault. Don't let their dirty hands touch it, bring it all down. Worth.

    And all this complaining about their money. Yes it'd be ideal if they hired a ton of people and gave us everything at once. Could say that about any company. But this is a completely separate issue. One that should not be used to somehow make Wolfe look better when it has nothing to do with even Bukkit. If they hired more people, why would they work on Bukkit, anyways? Might as well just work on the official Mod API. But see, now we're not talking about Wolfe anymore.

    But screw it. Take it all down. Why is this site up if the community support it's destruction? Probably Mojang's fault.

    Disclaimer: Again, if it wasn't clear, I am not arguing Wolfe's legal position. If he wants to do it, it's his choice. But.. dick move, man.
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    pilotdan1985, I don't really think it's fair to call Dinnerbone out on being lazy for not making a plugin like WorldGuard. First of all, I've seen the code for WorldEdit and WorldGuard. It is CRAZY complex (also very fascinating) compared to a code that flips entity models upside down. And second of all, one of the main reasons for the Bukkit community was so everyone would get a shot at making a cool plugin, right? If Dinnerbone had made all the great plugins, nobody else would get their time to shine as a developer.
    Relicum and ezeiger92 like this.
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    Thank you all Developers of Bukkit, for the years of amazing work you put into it. I've used Bukkit for over 3 Years for my servers now and it has provided me with a new way to build, create and entertain myself. I really hope this isn't the end for Bukkit, but so far it seems to feel like it. The EULA, 1.8 Update and sudden retirement of staff has completely shaken the community. Then the small things like the removal of meta-data have gone too. I'm going to spend the rest of my days on a good old Beta 1.7.3 server to hopefully see this through.

    If Bukkit does end, then farewell and thanks everyone for an amazing experience. I can only hope I come back to a newly restored Bukkit and Community. Thanks.
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    Oh, will it ever end?

    I wish the comments would just be locked, this has exploded into utter chaos. We've seen the notification (Wolfe's side) and we've seen the COO's side. All that's going on at this point is a restatement of opinions and a lot of redundancy. ;_;
    Dzetki, _LB, xize and 1 other person like this.
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    Morally, it was Mojang's fault to begin with which is what my next point is about.
    EULA changes as described by pilotdan1985 and impedance of Bukkit Lead decisions. These are just a string of bad decisions on Mojang's part.
    This is the issue at hand for the OP which is why it's fully on topic. It wasn't meant to make Wesley Wolfe look better. It was to show why Mojang isn't as good as how some are supporting it to be.
    I think the point of the post is that Dinnerbone could have done more useful work on the Plugin API instead of slacking off with the flipped mobs.
    ams2990 likes this.
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    So, and why exactly doesn't Mojang want to release Minecraft's source code ?
    Europia79 likes this.
  9. So you're saying that modded minecraft doesn't include code from minecraft, or builds on top of it? Thats not true for any video game with a mod... The mods are always built on top of the original code, and use features from the code. If they didn't use that then they wouldn't be mods, they would be entirely new games.
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    correct me if im wrong when the founders of bukkit sold out to mojang they basically gave them control of the code they the code wesly and others wrote can seph and dinnerbone and grumm could they transfer control of his code and others to mojang.without their permission?
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    You are wrong. Bukkit's contributions are not the Bukkit leads to give out as they still have owners and respective licenses.
  12. Good riddance? REALLY... You just said you had a great time with bukkit, why would you want to get rid of it?

    Secondly I'm quite shocked you want to quit developing for bukkit because of EULA and 1.8 (you can still earn money from donations to your profile, AND you can easily install decorational plugins for your server). Bukkit servers are only missing half the players they normally have, and will soon increase to be full players once everyone figures out how to edit their profile.

    Finally... why are you saying this in the 6th section of comments when lots of other people have already said the same thing, pointlessly quitting?
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    Mojang has dollars for days, and they could spend it in some better ways, LIKE HIRING A PR! Honestly I dont mean this in hostility but Mojang employees are some of the most immature workers I have ever seen, it seems like they are on Twitter 24/7 and when they aren't they are harassing someone else in a skype chat or something *cough* Grum *cough*. They could CERTAINLY afford a bukkit developer and I am sure they could get it dirt cheap to, who doesn't want to work at Mojang? Anyways its obvious the workers at Mojang are inteligent coders but I feel like they could be more efficient at work.
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    Unfortunately, I have to agree with you.
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    This ^^ Confuses me... *Confuzzled*
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    Since you're an owner of a large server, I'm not surprised.

    The thing you've got to remember is Mojang is not a large business, as a matter of fact. Stuff like this is probably difficult to deal with, which is why unwise decisions are sometimes made.
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    Mojang might not have many employees, but they got plenty of money and almost a monopol in the gaming industry, which gives them lots of influence. So, yes I'd say Mojang is a large business.

  18. When you pull in over a half billion in sales on your console games, you are a large company. You can no longer play the indie dev card.
    krisdestruction likes this.
  19. That part people got to check out. Also consider the age of the company is not having like published 20 300000000 $ games alongside with 5 1000000 $ failures - their total "whatever-count" is like idk...3, 4, 5 - so they could still "fail" even with continuing Minecraft at all. Some modesty for the relation between both could do well on all involved ends.

    They're by heart and start indie.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
    ezeiger92 likes this.
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    And in other news hundreds of Minecraft users suddenly get there law degree!!!
    Europia79 likes this.
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    So if I was to reverse engineer part of Microsoft Windows, mod it, release my mod as GPL and finally redistribute the entire package as one. Microsoft would be required to release Microsoft Windows under GPL? No, that's not how licensing works. If Mojang wants to use Bukkit code in Minecraft then they would be required to relicense Minecraft as GPL and release the source. Despite any other reasons Mojang has given that is the be all and end all legally binding reason why Bukkit CAN NOT AND WILL NOT be the Mojang's official Minecraft API.

    He has no ground to stand on, though. He's trying to file a DMCA claim against a GPL project to remove the GPL code he put into the project in the first place. That's not how GPL works and thank you for that! IF and only IF Mojang was to relicense Bukkit as closed-source or include bukkit code into Minecraft would his claim be valid. Mojang has done neither of these things. Until I came across this thread his DMCA claim had me utterly confused about what the problem even was. I was thinking he was making a DMCA claim someone else had levied against Bukkit public and not a claim he himself was doing so. Mojang actually had valid legal standing to file a DMCA against Bukkit (prior to the aquisition anyways, since it is a Moot point now) because Bukkit was not only including the Minecraft server in the craftbukkit downloads but also the de-obfuscated code.

    They bought the Bukkit name and any code contributed by the devs they hired. Until they either get legal consent of other contributors and rewrite/remove code from contributors that do not get legal consent they cannot relicense Bukkit. From my understanding they have no intention of ever relicensing Bukkit making this paragraph and your quote a moot point. They do plan to eventually make it "obsolete", as we all know, with the Official Mojang Minecraft API whenever that is finally completed. What happens to Bukkit from there is up to the community. Assuming they go through the whole process and legally relicense Bukkit. Any code prior to the relicense stays GPL and must remain publicly available. This would be a lot like what Google is currently doing with Android.

    I don't see where this comes it to play at all? Mojang isn't trying to relicense Bukkit or as far as I know claim the entire code as their own. All Mojang owning Bukkit does is prevent what EvilSeph attempted to do which is shutdown Bukkit. Even if Mojang didn't own Bukkit EvilSeph still couldn't shutdown Bukkit. Bukkit is GPL. All anyone would need to do is fork it and rename it. Problem solved. All Mojang really did is prevent a fork, rename and attempted to stop the wide spread panic that is going around. :/
    AlarielEisfalke and ezeiger92 like this.
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    Is there any other company in the world that has as many users as Minecraft for one of their games?

    Mojang is and always has been in over their head. I'd like to see you do it too.
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    Age and size does not excuse a company from continuing to make "unwise" decisions. Mojang needs to make amends and change it's decision moving forward.
    KevinABC96 likes this.
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    I'll give you the short summary...

    "Yes they did"
    "No they didn't"
    "Yes they did"
    "No they didn't"
    Waaah Waaah Waaah I'm taking my ball and going home!

    Hopefully at some point after the kids stop crying and finger pointing, the adults will step in and try to actually help fix the problem.
    Zarkaylia, _LB and bastion like this.
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    The code was not for Bukkit leads to resell in the first place.
    KevinABC96 likes this.

  26. He authorized Bukkit to use his code on the condition of their compliance with the GPL. The GPL requires that any distribution of code licensed under it, or any binary derived from it, also be licensed under the GPL. Since Mojang has refused to license the Minecraft server portion of their Bukkit project as GPL, they are in violation of the license granting them permission to use and distribute Wolfe's code. They are distributing copyrighted code without permission, which is copyright infringement. Thus, he has more than sufficient ground to file a DMCA claim, to prevent his copyrighted work from being used illegally. The same goes for every other Bukkit contributor.
    lDucks likes this.
  27. I don't see that "continuing to", i see some there some there... some kind of distribution. In my opinion they're not doing that bad.
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    *drinks a sip of tea*

    Lets start at the beginning, Evilseph sold bukkit to mojang a long time ago, why people are surprised about this baffles me since it was announced when he got hired at mojagng.

    Second mojang decided to let the bukkit project be community run while retaining the rights of it.
    in short terms this is the same thing file hosting companies do, they have the right of your files, weather you like it or not, but if your file gets copyright claimed they shove the claim to you cause its your fault, bukkit is the same in that regards.

    It doesn't matter what licence a project is under, the project will ALWAYS be owned by the project owners, you never own your own part of the code since its just plain stupid, saying "but he wrote x part of the code, so he owns that part" is like saying i've made 10% of minecraft and now i don't want minecraft to be distributed cause i own that 10%, like hell notch would hit me over the head with a iron frying pan.

    The code people wrote were contributions to a project, you willingly gave it to the project without claiming ownership of it, the moment you contributed it you gave away all your rights of that part of code.

    Saying mojang is lazy or is at fault is like saying the car company is at fault that you slammed into that wall cause you didn't break early enough and were driving to fast. they're not at fault, the people who are acting like little kids are.

    Aside from all that, CraftBukkit did contain a small portion of mojang stuff, but it needs to, how else would bukkit be able to have minecraft clients connect to it? ever tried to make a dedicated server for unreal engine without unreal engine files? let me tell you you can't you'd always need to know what connects to what and hence you go about looking into the handlers the game you're trying to make a server for work.

    Plain and simple, without looking at the source you have no clue how things work, regardless if you know the code lang.
    AlarielEisfalke likes this.
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    no he didn't " Sell " Mojang aquiried it when they hired the bukkit team... there was a forum post about it when it happen, don't know why people are so stoopid and go look !
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    When you send your contributions to a project, unless you explicitly state that you are giving up copyright of your code, the law suggests that you are only giving a license to that project to use your contribution. This is why there are projects that require contributors to sign CLAs in order to assign copyright.

    As far as I know, Bukkit did not require contributors to sign CLAs assigning copyright to Bukkit, or Mojang, or anyone. Instead, they accepted contributions under the GPL license. The GPL license states that you keep the copyright and the rights to your code that you contributed, and you give Bukkit a license to use your code under the terms of the GPL license.

    In this case Wolverness clearly feels that his code's license under Bukkit (GPL) has been violated, and so he has every right to revoke Bukkit's license to use his code.

    A better explanation is here:

    Disclaimer: IANAL, but I always have to consider licensing whenever I develop something. If you want a lawyer's opinion, the above link has an attorney responding. Go there and read it. Or get another lawyer's opinion.
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