Mojang and the Bukkit Project

Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.

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  1. Offline

    kshade

    Here's what Mojang should do in my opinion: Release the server part of Minecraft under an open source license. Three clause BSD, GPL, I don't care, just open it up. People don't buy Minecraft because they want the server software, they want the client. You have nothing to lose. At least apologize to the developers who weren't aware of the project's owner. Then pay all future expenses for hosting and developing Bukkit. Make it the official, only server software, the vanilla SMP server can finally be put out of its misery.

    I'm fairly disgusted by how Mojang has been acting lately. Not fully supporting Bukkit despite it being a major reason anyone still cares for their game, dicking over server owners and mod authors in order to stop a few scummy ones… what happened? Didn't you want to be the good guys at some point?
     
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  2. Offline

    AravanFox

    I recall the bookworm dev not sure what to do with her(?) plugin after that. I kept it, since it worked better, IMO.
     
  3. Offline

    Violetstar

    Please explain how they messed with server owners? The only way server owners got screwed is that bukkit software became unavailable. Mojang did not have a part of that at all.
     
    AlarielEisfalke likes this.
  4. Offline

    Rachel2560


    Are you kidding me?

    The pushed UUID's that require nearly every plugin to be altered, and made server owners have to go through somewhat of an headache updating. Not a big issue but not that small.

    Then they start pushing this EULA that threatened all server income, then they revised it adding in exceptions that really hurt server owners. On top of that it put them to all the time altering their stores, permissions and thinking of new ways to operate. Now you have those good guys operating on a shoesting unless they are really large and have an established player base and those that were rips off's still operating.

    And if you read Evil's post no matter what percentage was down to the EULA the EULA factored in there and contributed to all this nonsense that we have now.

    In essence Mojang has put much pressure on server owners indirectly.

    Sure we are going to get some idiot in here telling us we are all wrong and UUID's are great, Mojang didn't alter the eula blah blah blah and evil left because he's bored or something but that was the effect on server owners.

    And to say Mojang had no part in not following a license to a project that they brought = lol
     
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  5. Offline

    Violetstar

    Ok, so its wrong of them to enforce their user license agreement?
     
  6. Offline

    Rachel2560


    Who said anything about that?

    We are talking of the effect....

    And let me bounce back at you i.e wolf:

    Ok, so its wrong of them to enforce their user license agreement?
     
  7. Offline

    Kigen

    Just to illustrate Mojang's commitment to keeping Bukkit alive I'll post this bit.

    Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/admincraft/comments/2fo9vc/mojangs_involvement/
     
  8. Offline

    toothplck1 Retired Staff

    So its ok for them to enforce their license agreement, but a developer of bukkit cannot enforce the license on his code?
     
    sciguyryan, feildmaster, DHLF and 4 others like this.
  9. Offline

    nonentity

    So, it seems that:
    - Mojang is horrible because they didn't save the project before the developers as a group tried to kill it out of the blue
    - Mojang is horrible because they did try to rescue the project after the developers as a group tried to kill it
    - Mojang is horrible because they took control after the devs tried to kill it
    - Mojang is horrible because they don't want to be in control and want the project to continue without their interference

    Talk about your no-win situations.

    Oh, and,
    - Mojang is horrible because they won't just give away the source to their own product when we want it!
     
    AlarielEisfalke and silas like this.
  10. Offline

    Kigen

    nonentity They, and quite a few others, are horrible for expecting people to work their butts off for free. Bukkit and others like it don't magically appear out of thin air. They are made by people who dedicated a lot of their free time into a mostly thankless, unsustainable, job.

    Mostly I see a ton of people complain about Bukkit shutting down, crying like children. Fact is that people dedicated their free time into something they felt for. When the team felt they could no longer continue the project, as a group, they decided it was time to close the doors. But then Mojang comes out of no where and says, "Hey, you don't get to shut it down. It stays alive." But they don't do ANYTHING to actually support its continued survival outside of telling the Bukkit Developers to just continue with it. Which is asinine. Mojang is as much of a leach as a lot of others I've seen complaining here about the actions of the Bukkit Development team. That then forced them ALL to resign since they couldn't shut down the project peacefully.

    Mojang could have continued to support Bukkit with the mappings. Mojang could have had some of their developers help out as needed. Mojang could have solved a lot of licensing issues by being clear with the contributors where they stood in relation to Bukkit. Mojang could have at least communicated with these people. But they didn't. They just leached off their hard work like all the others.

    Just to give you some history, I've been in that position. I've created a successful project (Kigen's Anti-Cheat, released under GPL v3). I've had over 3000 Source engine servers using it. I've had the pitfalls of a ton of leaches complaining and being rather nasty that I wasn't working hard enough for them. I've had the issues of an upstream group stomp on me. I decided it was no longer worth my time. The only part that diverges is the upstream group decided to fork the project and strip out all GPL notices and copyrights and claim it as their own. When I noticed this I politely asked them to add the notices back. The only compromise they gave was adding a LICENSE file and a GPL v3 file to their repo. But that wasn't sufficient and I told them that. They told me politely to go pound sand. I tell them its not sufficient but they stop talking to me. I wait for a month to see if they change their mind. So back into a similar situation I had to file a DMCA takedown notice. They then promptly banned me and moved hosting to Sweden. And then try to drag my name through the mud by telling the community that my complaints were BS and that none of my code even existed in their fork anymore (even though it was painfully obvious that was not the case). To this day it still remains unresolved.
     
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  11. Offline

    Violetstar

    Post 1:
    Post 2:
    You just said it two seconds ago! And I have NEVER said that it wasn't Wolf's right. I have argued that he did it in the worst way possible and THAT is what killed the 150k servers.
     
    AlarielEisfalke likes this.
  12. Offline

    Rachel2560


    Are you just deliberately being obtuse?

    You wanted an explanation of how "Mojang messed with server owners".

    I gave you a list of things that has made it difficult for server owners and the whole community over the past few months e.g UUID's, Eula and how the Eula impacted somewhat on Bukkit ending up as it is. This messes up server owners.

    Your response was "They have a right to enforce eula", nobody was questioning their right! Don't be such an imbecile.

    If your going to give such a stupid response as "it's their right" and that is supposed to some how make everything "ok" or make Mojang not to blame then like I said; Accept the fact Bukkit dev's enforced their right to have their licensed followed and stop whining about it.

    You think you can question Bukkit dev's motives for enforcing their license and on the other hand imply we shouldn't or couldn't question Mojang's right to.

    If your going to argue points use logic, be consistent and non biased.
     
  13. Offline

    eyamaz

    This is your warning to keep it civil.

    There is no need for name calling or other abusive behavior.
     
  14. Offline

    Violetstar

    You are not paying attention. You were blaming Mojang for screwing over server owners for enforcing their EULA. I asked a simple question... was it wrong for them to do that because you clearly say so. Resorting to name calling and not even reading YOUR OWN posts is clearly very childish behavior. You are going off the rails for me asking one simple question. You are out of control, oh and hey even admin thinks so.
     
  15. Offline

    Chojun

    Sorry it's been a busy weekend and this is a fast moving thread.

    This is true, assuming that Bukkit retains copyright claim against all contributions to the project. But since the GPL is a "copyleft" license, no-one can revoke your right to use/modify/distribute the software you received under the license so long as you are not in violation of the license's terms.

    Here's a good thread to follow if you're interested in the GPL issue: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/2fdts0/gpl_you_keep_using_that_word_i_do_not_think_it/

    Mojang is not at risk of losing their source code because some of their code was released under the GPL. The code was not authorized to be released. The only way the GPL can be reconciled in this case is for the whole thing to be invalidated - i.e. unfortunately take down the source repository.

    Now, for the plugin developers: since Bukkit is licensed under the GPL, the only acceptable license for the plugins is unfortunately GPL or GPL compatible. This means the only recourse plugin devs have at this point if they don't want to lose control of their source is to take down their repositories and cease distribution. But I think such a drastic measure isn't required.

    After reading up on the issue at hand I believe that Mojang isn't behind this fiasco - indeed, it's greatly harmful to Minecraft, largely because as I've said before the mod community has greatly overshadowed vanilla Minecraft. By pulling the rug out from Spigot and Bukkit Wolfe has unwittingly dealt Minecraft a mortal blow. Essentially, imagine being awakened at night by a phone call, and being informed that a friend was involved in a serious accident and is on life-support. Minecraft is in a similar situation.

    I believe the next steps that Mojang takes will determine if Minecraft survives or not. I can't emphasize this enough: Mojang made a critical error by postponing the modding API. Here's my message for Jeb and the rest of the decision-makers at Mojang:

    Dear Mojang:
    1) The SMP community has overshadowed vanilla Minecraft.
    2) You cannot innovate as quickly as the community. STOP the content updates (for the next 1-2 releases).
    3) Place the mod API on the FRONT BURNER and call all hands on deck. You have the bukkit staff - put them to work implementing Bukkit as the official mod API.
    4) You have about 3-4 months for a release before Minecraft is lost. As you know the game world never sleeps and players will move on.
    5) You guys should have plenty of operating capital. Your brand is huge, leverage some of it if you have to, to expand your team. You should have at least 20 full-time developers in house (remote doesn't count).
    6) This situation reeks of poor management. You never should have gotten into this situation. Someone needs to be fired for hiring core Bukkit staff and pigeon-holing them into whatever task they've been doing.
     
  16. Offline

    Rexel

    Mojang are incompetent at best, at worst oh they don't want you to know just how bad they are. Roll in the curse moderating.
     
  17. Offline

    bogdacutu

    the same API that they have been supposedly working on for the past few years? yeah, not going to happen

    yes, it doesn't contain any minecraft code, with the small exception of the whole vanilla server code

    He allowed Bukkit to use it his code under the terms of GPL (by committing), which is not valid because CraftBukkit uses code from Minecraft (which is closed-source). Any other Bukkit developer could have brought down the project, and the results would be largely the same (the only difference would be the blame, which would be shifted from Wolvereness to the person who did the DMCA takedown)
     
    AdamQpzm likes this.
  18. Offline

    Maximvdw

    To fill in with bogdacutu , all downstream projects (all plugins) are covered under GPL as well. So even a plugin developer that did not add any commits to the craftbukkit/bukkit project could issue a DMCA takedown
     
  19. Offline

    Rachel2560


    Nobody is calling you names at all.

    What I said was what you posted was irrelevant and stupid argument wise, obviously so.

    You asked a question and got an answer then went into "lala land" and rather than addressing any points and simply tried to shut the debate down with "Mojang can enforce their EULA, just because they can" /shutdown debate.

    If you really don't want to debate anything and think simple annoying answers like the above are enough then let me shut down your whining that you have been doing about "bukkit staff being mean" by just saying this:

    You were blaming Bukkit devs for screwing over server owners for enforcing their license. They are within their rights to enforce it, it's allowed, it's legal. Therefore using your logic you can't argue anything further and whatever you say is invalid and also you need to accept this fact and approve of their decision even if you don't like it and furthermore them doing this has "no effect" because they can /shutdown debate

    Why bother asking any question that begs an answer if your responses are not even on topic or contribute to further discussion?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here's the convo if you cannot remember what you posted:

    Are you kidding me?

    The pushed UUID's that require nearly every plugin to be altered, and made server owners have to go through somewhat of an headache updating. Not a big issue but not that small.

    Then they start pushing this EULA that threatened all server income, then they revised it adding in exceptions that really hurt server owners. On top of that it put them to all the time altering their stores, permissions and thinking of new ways to operate. Now you have those good guys operating on a shoesting unless they are really large and have an established player base and those that were rips off's still operating.

    And if you read Evil's post no matter what percentage was down to the EULA the EULA factored in there and contributed to all this nonsense that we have now.

    In essence Mojang has put much pressure on server owners indirectly.

    Sure we are going to get some idiot in here telling us we are all wrong and UUID's are great, Mojang didn't alter the eula blah blah blah and evil left because he's bored or something but that was the effect on server owners.

    And to say Mojang had no part in not following a license to a project that they brought = lol


     
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  20. Offline

    DHLF

    Rachel2560
    Well just throwing my opinion in here..
    From the start of my first running server I did not ask anyone to *donate* nor expected any donations.
    I myself is paying those dedicated servers from my own money just for the fun me(and others) may have.
    (And I was never interested in being paid due those paperwork I would have to fight with .. taxes or so)
    So this point of those EULA does not hurt me anyhow.

    If someone keeps nice and helpful he will be promoted. No need for donations.

    But other parts of those EULA are.. nebulous to me. You could *see* any meaning in them.
    So we have just to sit and wait until many things get clearly.. cleared.
     
  21. Offline

    Rachel2560


    I agree there are many different servers. Some wouldn't want a donation at all and would refuse it if offered, some wouldn't mind if one was offered and would take it.

    Then again some actually need it, and some just run servers as a business.

    I also think the EULA is workable from a donations point of view but from the many different types of servers there are and many different types of gameplay servers offer it's still hard to tell what is and isn't allowed.

    I don't really accept any of the arguments for the EULA though at least those that were put out there and wasn't really official e.g the credit card thing, p2w etc I think it's really up to the individual where they spend their money and to play where they like.

    TBH I don't see why the old system bothered Mojang as those servers were providing a service to it's players anyway and there were enough types of servers to go around from non donation based ones to high priced donation ranks.

    I could agree with Mojang on the EULA wholeheartedly if they specified that they didn't want any Minecraft items to be sold i.e swords, blocks or any item, either for real money, or in game money brought with real money. Things they actually own, but I can't see the point in disallowing things users created such as essentials /feed and so on.

    It just seems to me they should of been more clear and be a bit less restrictive.

    However the point I really was making was that the EULA did impact on Bukkit devs decision at least Evil's and it did put server owners to a lot of trouble.
     
  22. Offline

    nonentity

    They don't appear to be "expecting" anyone to "work their butts off for free". They appear to be *trying* to prevent a group of people from unilaterally shutting down a project that until now has been run as an independent, community project (regardless of who "owns" the name and the project's resources). A group that attempted to pin the responsibility for the shutdown on Mojang.

    Let's see. So far:
    - Mojang officially prevented the developers from just shutting the whole thing down.
    - Some Mojang reps have stated (possibly unofficially?) that several of the stated reasons for shutdown didn't need to be problems, but that they weren't asked about it.
    - Dinnerbone stated (perhaps unofficially?) that he would take over the update task that the devs had already stated they would not do.
    - When the DMCA request shut everything down, Mojang did what they legally needed to, and clarified their position regarding their own copyrights.
    - Since then, we don't know what Mojang's been doing. They've been quiet, because that's sort of what you do when someone throws legal threats at you.

    Mojang forced the devs to resign because they weren't allowed to just resign peacefully! Wait.... what?
     
  23. Offline

    RebzO1


    I agree with most points here, im in the group that doesn't ask for donations but would accept them.
    And yes the new UELA allows for pay for perks but what i chose to do is give and XP boost to the server when a player donates (within the EULA as all players have the same gaming experience).

    Do i like the new EULA... NO it undermines everything that some servers have been doing since day one (illegally or not mojang should not have turned a blind eye to it)
     
  24. Offline

    TheDeamon

    I agree with Mojang that release of the server code is, and should be, non-negotiable. It becoming GPL is not on the table so long as Minecraft remains a viable commercial product.

    Now here is a suggestion for something Mojang and the community could possibly do to resolve the GPL problems with CraftBukkit, and some of these "steps" could possibly be skipped or done concurrently, one of which(step 2) doesn't even require CraftBukkit to continue on:

    Step 1:

    Release an interim "experimental server build" as Mojang that matches up with the API for the offending .jar file as closely as they possibly can do legally without infringing on rights they cannot "lock down" to prevent further takedowns.​

    Also release, under CraftBukkit, updated code to make use of that (slightly modified) API in that jar file under 1.8.​

    Wolverness's grounds for the DMCA takedown are then essentially nullified, so long as they can assert either permission from the author of the server code, or different code being used, on the "experimental" jar file. As the non-GPL code is being distributed separately from the GPL source,​

    Step 2:

    Create some kind of "community interface" between some(several/many) of the "leading developers" within the community, and ask them to rank and prioritize a list of (a given size of) (server side) API features they would like to see Mojang include in the base server file. Realistically, either Mojang, or the community at large could initiate this particular step(the community can request all it wants, it doesn't mean Mojang has to give it to them).​

    There would be some (obvious) legalistic stuff that would need to be addressed as to who retains "rights" to the suggested API features, and whatnot. As Mojang isn't likely to be game in adopting an API "feature" that would in turn require them to release their entire server code, or other such silly/extreme request/requirement as Wolverness recently tried to pull.​

    Basically to clarify, CraftBukkit's API is used as a general "baseline" for a semi-official server API, and what is detailed above becomes the process moving forward for how the community interacts with Mojang for trying to extend that API further, and doing so in a meaningful and coherent way rather than making Mojang have to wade through 100's or random and somewhat incoherent "feature requests" that don't form anything resembling a more cohesive whole.​

    So depending on how successful "Step 2" is, and presuming "Step 1" happened, it is possible that these two steps could keep iterating back and forth between each other. (Mojang and the Server Community) Or if that doesn't work, Step 1 simply becomes an emergency measure taken by Mojang for 1.8 only, and it goes back to status quo until Mojang is ready to do an official implementation...​

    But I'd tend to think the community of third party developer's are going to want some kind of quasi-official means of interacting with Mojang when that official implementation happens anyhow. So I view this step as something that is going to happen sooner or later anyhow. Might as well start on the groundwork now.​

    Step 3:

    For a group of people with the time and inclination to do so, and risk the possibility of getting little to no reward... Start a process that could ultimately lead to a "CraftBukkit 2.0" with or without continued future use of a modified and dubiously legal jar file that belongs to Mojang. (That part could be moot, depending on how the earlier steps play out, if the Community, and Mojang, between each other, make the need to continue such a practice irrelevant, then it ceases to matter)​

    Basically go through the repository after a particular point has been agreed to as being "the Fork" and start seeking permission from every contributor to see about changing the licensing terms from GPL to something more appropriate for a project like CraftBukkit actually is. This will take time, some contributors may take weeks to respond, some may not respond at all(and a small number of those could already be dead), others will probably refuse. Provisions will need to be made to remove the relevant code if it is deemed that code does in fact "belong" to those individuals who refused, or didn't respond.​

    (The reason why I stipulate that a contributor may not "own" the code they commit is that fixing a typo in code, or renaming of a variable, doesn't/shouldn't offer that person any kind of meaningful "copyright" claim, on the code he touched.)​
     
  25. Offline

    Violetstar

    Yes, I asked a simple question... and you came back not even answering it but blaming me for things I didn't even say. You came in here looking for a fight.
     
  26. Offline

    Chojun

    Is it just me or are people forgetting that some time ago Mojang reworked the server in such a way that it is now an integral part of Minecraft? If so, people who are asking that it be open-sourced are essentially asking that Minecraft become open-source.


    Given our experience here with Bukkit and Spigot people should not be so naive about open-source. It's not the silver bullet that people claim it is, and in fact it can offer quite a bit of liabilities. It's important that Mojang continue to be the creative leaders for Minecraft.

    Because of the way that Minecraft mods have become larger than Minecraft itself, the only way this whole situation can be reconciled is if Mojang finally releases the Mod API.
     
    Markyroson likes this.
  27. Offline

    Markyroson

    vubui Thank you for clearing this up somewhat. Hopefully the DCMA notice will be taken down or resolved in some way and bukkit (including CraftBukkit) can start back up as normal as possible in the near future.
     
  28. Offline

    Rachel2560

    The Bukkit team decided to shut the project down and did so successfully with the DCMA, it's their right and it shouldn't be questioned.

    What's so wrong about that anyway?

    Do they have some sort of contract with you where they aren't allowed to quit or take ownership of their own code? Are they required to keep your server or servers you play on running for free?

    Aren't you happy that you already have got a free server to play on?

    What are you owed by the Bukkit team exactly? Do you want a refund?
     
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  29. Offline

    pilotdan1985

    SGrayMe I agree with you, which is why I've changed up my idea. I'm doing a temporary 1 week server shut down to raise awareness for Bukkit starting on 9/12/14. It's worth the effort to help motivate Mojang to do something. Without Bukkit our players are screwed anyways. Why not at least try something? We need all the help we can get. Anyone interested can find more info at http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/se...jang-official-server-shut-down-notice.310646/
     
  30. Offline

    CommanderMedic

    I don't understand. In the long run, what is this going to accomplish?


    Also both sides have valid points and are both at fault. This is just giving me a headache. What is being done about this? Does anyone know how the court systems take to decide and make its final decision.?
     
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