Mojang and the Bukkit Project

Discussion in 'Community News and Announcements' started by vubui, Sep 5, 2014.

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  1. Offline

    rundmcarlson


    No one said they would have to use the current bukkit. The idea was simply to run a properly contained and funded api that is up to date. If they don't want to have issues with conflicting licenses or release of their code, they can easily create a non open source api. The community based modding could continue, while the apparently sacred mc code is safe behind their bullshit.
     
  2. Offline

    krisdestruction

    If you want to do 3-4 years worth of coding by yourself just to make it a bridge between current CraftBukkit and the PluginAPI, be my guest. If Mojang was cheap enough to be unwilling to spend any resources on supporting Bukkit within the past 2 years, I highly doubt they would recode everything for the community :) Those resources would be better spent on the Plugin API which clearly Mojang is slacking on.
     
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  3. Offline

    flying sheep

    well, the coming of the myth-enshrouded official API would also fix things nicely, of course.
     
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  4. Offline

    asofold

    It's curtain.
     
  5. Offline

    rundmcarlson


    Sorry, they swim in so much shit I couldn't notice any curtain behind it all.
     
    krisdestruction likes this.
  6. Offline

    hellspawn3200


    people play vanilla, mojang won't be harmed by bukkit shutting down, only server admins.
    mojang has been steadily rewriting minecraft in preparation for mod api. with as much code as minecraft has rewriting almost the entire game takes a while. it was not written in an easy way to have an api.

    they switched from using block id's to names 'minecraft:stone' because its easier to mod in blocks without relying on block id's which can conflict. so they have to rewrite every reference in every part of their code that references blocks by id.
     
  7. Offline

    Weirdaholic

    Oh my... *sigh* -.-

    It's not even relevant, who is "winning".

    For both cases, there will be solutions without "killing" Bukkit (Mojang-Code is replaceble, also the code of Wolfe; also there is a solution to that licencing-issue, which doesn't harm anyone. You all just can't imagine it! Maybe you even don't want to imagine it... it could lead to a satisfying end! And satisfying endings are boring... (sarcasm)).

    Do you really think that anybody (idc anymore if you mean mojang or Wolfe) has planned this situation?
    (Do you really think that people in general just want to disturb others just for fun?)
    Or are you (all) just trolling, and i can't see it?

    There will never be an end of Minecraft... even the cance for an end of Bukkit is very low. But when it happens, there will be a new Mod like Bukkit, there will be Forge (the Devs (info via Twitter) are currently working on a way to implement Bukkit-Plugins), and there will be the Mod-API of Mojang (anywhere in the distant future).

    Please keep realistic. Leave them alone for a while, let Mojang, Wolfe (and who is also involved) do, what they have to do. Be patient and trust them.

    P.S.: It's a good move of Mojang not to tell anything of the things that are happening (except for that poor P.R.-Try). It seems, you will all move on raging, no matter if they're doing something or not. So have fun with your raging! I'm finally out.
     
  8. Offline

    Cliffordlittle

    Exactly... Without CB, Mojang would NOT have been able to have all the ideas for Minecraft that they have had. Also, Without CB, Minecraft would have fallen into the couch cushions like all the rest of the "old games that nobody plays anymore" have gone.


    Good call on your part.
     
  9. Offline

    DamienMine

    Well I guess you're right, in my response I only had the PC-community in mind. Still not a good situation.
     
  10. Offline

    JorgTheElder

    How does it show that Mojang can be touched? How does showing that they can kill Bukkit bother Mojang at all? Mojang is in no way hurt if Bukkit dies.

    Don't get me wrong. I am not saying it is a good situation, I am just pointing out Minecraft is a lot more than PC now.

    How does that mess with Mojang? At this point they would not be hurt at all my Bukkit dying. It would be really hard on Dinnerbone and the other folks that came from Bukkit, but would not hurt Mojang at all.

    All you are doing is destroying the Bukkit community.


    The only reason that CraftBukkit still exists is because Mojang has been willing to ignore it. By forcing them to "clarify the situation" you are simply forcing them to acknowledge that it the license if broken. Since there is no chance of the minecraft_server code ever being released under a compatible license, this kills the project.


    I am calling BS on that whole paragraph. People are creative, if their had not been CraftBukkit there would have been other sources of creativity. And we also have Forge and all the other mods that can be directly injected into Minecraft.

    I have been playing Minecraft since alpha and have never spent any time on a modded server. I understand that the Minecraft we have to day has been influenced by the Bukkit community, but you are way overstating things.

    Mojang has obviously understands the value that Bukkit has brought to the Minecraft world, or they would have done what Wesley is doing now and shut it down 3 years ago. Do you think they hired Dinnerbone and the other without understing the value of Bukkit?

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
  11. Offline

    Inscrutable

    *** This says it all ***
    Thank you for the excellent commentary, James Owens. I agree completely.
     
  12. Offline

    robotnikthingy

    *Looks at the front page

    Whelp, look at all the staff saying goodbye
     
  13. Offline

    MR_B_M_a_n

    Looking at the bigger picture, it's in Mojang's best business interest to kill Bukkit, though it looks like they were not quite ready to see Bukket shut down yet. Here is the rational I was able to piece together:

    Because Mojang now has Realms, their business interest in supporting server extensions has jumped into high gear. Mojang is now likely being pressured to offer functionality in Realms that requires support for plugins already out there in order to make Realms customers happy and to be on-par with current server hosting that offers Bukkit plugins. Their Realms business really can't grow while better capabilities are out there.

    Mojang's current dilemma is that to add plugin support to Realms and support the plethora of plugins in the community today, they would have to rely on opensource projects for their hosted platform. This presents certain risks as Mojang however.

    Mojang would clearly view anyone who hosts servers similar to the Realms service as competition, so the faster that competition is killed off, the greater demand for Realms would follow. This is a strategy that's most likely unfolding here now. We saw the EULA changes a few months back, all part of what has to be a much larger plan put into motion back when the original Bukkit dev team was "purchased". Anyone care to speculate what the original Bukkit team has been working on these last few years?

    What's likely to come next is a large percentage of base server plugins like Essentials to become built-into the platform. We are seeing the trend with new server oriented features popping up in every release, /worldborder in 1.8 is a great example of this trend.

    While this is a crappy situation for many who host their own servers, including myself, this DMCA event can only serve to hasten Mojang's current plans that are apparently in motion. I will never use Mojangs Realms service myself, so if Mojang doesn't come out with their own API's and support for migrating the majority of plug-ins currently available, I'll be hard pressed continue using Minecraft at all. It will be difficult for them to recover from this debacle if they don't move quickly.
     
  14. Offline

    krisdestruction

    JorgTheElder Please use quotes. Also, if you haven't read all the Bukkit staff resignations, I suggest you read them now.
    Mojang owns Bukkit. This takes down their content without their "authorization".


    And if Mojang was willing to ignore it, that's their problem and a separate issue altogether.

    There are, they're shit. Bukkit is the largest and best maintained one.
    Modded as in forge or bukkit, you should specify.
    If they understood it, they should have actually supported it instead of ignored it as you stated. Yet they did not support it until their profit stream was challenged. Why spend time to look for developers when you can cherrypick from the most successful Minecraft API project out there?
     
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  15. Offline

    shnugget


    No, what you did was so disappointing.
     
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  16. Offline

    asofold

    It's a hard punch to go from "classic" open source to "owned by a then by b", though i still am missing the "sold by XYZ" part a little bit. Still i feel that shifty/illegal modding of a game does not fit GPL and all that freedom :p, the legal chapter is still being written, though. What would people be doing now, if Minecraft had had a perfect plugin API from the start, say with forcing custom licenses on plugins, preventing GPL and similar?
     
  17. Offline

    LEOcab

    Isn't Wolverness the same douche who made it so that certain plugins aren't compatible across Bukkit versions? Half of the plugins I use that meet that criteria were doing just fine before he came along with his flamboyant commit. Now he pulls this stunt. That guy's a douche.
     
    robotnikthingy likes this.
  18. Offline

    JorgTheElder

    ROLF. Ok... so these servers are not going to be updated.. so all the clients are going to demand a refund from Mojang....
    Ok, tell me again how this has ANY effect on Mojang's bottom line?

    Sorry, quotes have not been working properly for me today.

    I have not spent any real time playing on servers running any mods at all. Mostly I have run my own server and left it vanilla.

    That is what I do not understand. They did support it. They supported it by allowing it to exist and NOT doing anything to make the code any harder to decompile/deobfuscate. I do not know of any way they could have supported it any more that that as it was/is illegally distributing their property.

    Again, I am not saying they did everything right, I am just saying that I am honestly surprised that people undervalue the fact that Mojang let the project exist at all, I don't think I would have.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
  19. Offline

    Inscrutable

    (1) Rolf is in Jail for being a pedo.
    (2) I never implied folk would want a refund from Mojang. Stop playing MC, possibly.
    (3) Bad Publicity hits their bottom line. This story is all over the 'net now, and Mojang's position on the licensing (and ownership of the Bukkit project) makes them look pretty shonky. They may or may not notice the loss of player base from the collapse of Bukkit-based servers and the extra sales they attract.
    Have a Day.
     
  20. Offline

    jamescowens

    Clearly no one is going to demand a refund from Mojang.

    The death of Bukkit may not have much effect on Minecraft immediately. All games have an arc, though. Minecraft has been blessed with a really long run. One that is well deserved. It is a really great game. However, there are already signs of fatigue from the most tenured players. How do I know? I watch my three kids and their interaction with their friends. Many of their friends are losing interest. They haven't yet, but I feel it coming. They are not on Minecraft as much as before. Often significant events, such as what has happened here, can provide just enough destablization to push an already well-tenured game into decline.

    The best Minecraft gaming experience (for the most players) is provided by the public servers such as Hypixel which make heavy use of plugins and mods. Hypixel is blessed with having developers and administrators on staff that are very good. Not all public servers are so blessed. Many of the public servers may shut down as a result of this disaster. Once the rank and file Minecraft players start to get the sense that things are falling apart, functionality that they have come to love is no longer there on their favorite servers, new features (enabled by plugins) are not forthcoming, or even worse, their favorites servers shut down, they will begin to lose interest. The long slow death on the PC/Linux/Mac platform will begin, if it hasn't already.

    The Minecraft player base is so big that decay will be counterbalanced by influx of new players that haven't been exposed to the game, for a while. Perhaps the gaming consoles will hold the user counts up, or even result in increases for a while. This will eventually change and actual decline will occur. My guess is another year before the peak occurs and then decline after that.

    The open question is whether the Bukkit replacement that is already in the works (Sponge, which is going to be Forge + Flow based on the fast moving events of today) will be ready in time, with enough plugin developers participating to halt the collapse and stave off the decline.

    We shall see. I certainly hope so. I am rooting for it! It will be an interesting adventure!
     
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  21. Offline

    Jack423

    Well I sure to hell am not using realms for my minecraft server now because it sucks and no one uses it.
     
  22. Offline

    krisdestruction

    Which part of the sold part? I think I hava bit more of a clearer understanding? I'm sure if the Plugin API existed before bukkit, minecraft would not have grown to where it is now. Bukkit left a legacy, Mojang is only now scrambling to fill it's void.
    Put a source next time. I don't know, but I rather have plugins automatically disabling than not finding the proper dependencies to run properly.
    PR, less sales, honestly anything to show Notch has lost control of his company, and to make them realize that their decisions impact the community.
    Well that just clearly shows you're not a major stakeholder in this issue and represent the 0.1% of this community. For a big chunk of us who are on both sides of this debate, we either run a server using CraftBukkit or are a player on a CraftBukkit server.
    Ignorance is not support, it's negligence. The fact that they have obfuscated code in the first place made it harder for Bukkit. They pulled support from deobfuscated mappings to make things harder for Bukkit. They lied when they said they would provide better official support for larger server and server modifications (a subset but largly Bukkit). They kept the Bukkit transaction a secret all this time. They directly hurt Bukkit's userbase with the monetization changes. They recent said they would enforce EULA changes which makes it more risky to operate Bukkit. They threatened legal action to it's userbase. They trolled bukkit with the Plugin API for 4 years. They hired and took away the 4 biggest leads of bukkit at the time. Do I need to explain more? Don't get me started on the other things it did unrelated to the impact on Bukkit's coding.

    Not only is it literally worse than EA, it's worse than most companies out there.
     
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  23. Offline

    asofold

    Simple: Someone buys something usually means that someone sells something.
     
  24. Offline

    krisdestruction

    Yes, I think I have a good way of explaining it and this is fully my interpretation of it so if I'm wrong, feel free to interject at anytime. Code contributions under GPL is something that is shared for use in a coding project. Ownership doesn't really belong to anyone and the license follows the code. So Bukkit didn't own the code to begin with, it only used it thus it should not have been something they could sell to Mojang. Assuming all sellable things were sold to Mojang, Mojang probably owns the site domain, community management, trademarks, etc. In hindsight I feel that Mojang got the short end of this deal because they pretty much got nothing out of it but bad PR yet the bukkit leads got (what I assume to be) a well paying job at a respectable company at the time. With all this going on, I wouldn't want to even consider Mojang employment lol. Does that help?

    I can't confirm the incompatibility because I myself am not a lawyer, but I trust sk98q is right in his summary. Thus the way I understand Section 12 of the GPL license is that if it's deemed incompatible, then the code cannot be used.
     
  25. Offline

    asofold

    I refer to the moment when somone (a, b, c) bought something of Bukkit - someone (x, y, z) must have sold something, thus is involved into this mess, just doesn't get mentioned too much in this context. Not that i want it to be mentioned, just stating it's just not getting mentioned.
     
  26. Offline

    extended_clip

    So who got paid when Mojang bought Bukkit?
     
  27. Offline

    asofold

    No idea, could be Curse, could be developers, santa claus. The employed technique and licensing are probably the kill switch for this, so that it all doesn't matter that much.
     
  28. Offline

    krisdestruction

    Bought as in a transaction agreement. All we know is that Bukkit was traded for jobs at Mojang. There just aren't enough details about the transaction.

    Regarding EvilSeph, I wonder respectfully if he was forced to quit or resigned from Mojang.

    EDIT: Nvm I misunderstood. His employment at Mojang ended in 2013.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
  29. Offline

    extended_clip

    Im sure someone got a fat sack of cash too. People don't just give something away that has a potential to offer the owner some spotlight/source of revenue for a job that doesn't pay.
     
  30. Offline

    MrInspector

    Mojang, $120k every day wasn't enough for them ya'know. :cool:
     
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