Introducing BukkitDev, a new service by Bukkit and Curse!

Discussion in 'Bukkit News' started by EvilSeph, Aug 24, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Offline

    EvilSeph Retired Staff

    [​IMG]

    BukkitDev is the missing link in the project management chain prevalent in the Minecraft community. The popular solution of making use of forum software - something designed specifically for single-threaded discussion - leaves developers painfully scavenging through threads made up of hundreds of pages simply to get to that one bug report you finally addressed. It is all very tedious and time-consuming; time lost that could be better spent doing what you love - bringing to life those mad, awesome ideas you have running around in your head. With BukkitDev, each project has their own mini-community and tools that developers are free to moderate and make use of; per-project issue trackers and forums are just a few of the advantages BukkitDev has over using a traditional forum based solution.

    As detailed below, BukkitDev provides you with a complete project management solution that makes maintaining and updating your project a breeze. While many of the things BukkitDev has to offer were what we planned Fill to eventually be, there is no way we would be able to achieve the level of maturity and polish that BukkitDev currently has without the support and backing we now have from Curse. Moving forward, with the support of Curse, we are able to provide the community with some much-needed resources and support that we simply could not do alone. Thanks to Curse's support, we can now confidently provide stable, long lasting download hosting to every project within the community and since this takes advantage of the extensive and powerful Curse.com distribution platform, the reach and exposure your projects have will increase significantly. Since BukkitDev makes use of the Curse.com platform, your Bukkit community accounts won't work - you will have to use Curse accounts instead.

    The Bukkit Project has been about giving the community what they need from day one and with Curse backing the project, we're now provided with a unique opportunity to make that happen. With the help of Curse we've been in active discussion and working closely with Mojang to help them with testing and provide us with the ability to have updates ready shortly after a Minecraft update goes live, reducing the amount of downtime the community run servers face to virtually no time at all, allowing you to experience the full update in your own time and not ours.

    Looking toward the future, the Bukkit Project hopes to work with Mojang and Curse to continue to provide the Minecraft community with the tools they need to continue to make magic happen. As a first step, we're offering the BukkitDev service to client modders to help manage and promote their project just as efficiently as server modders can. We hope to expand this service in the future by exploring the possibility of providing a central client mod base with the cooperation and support of Mojang.

    Presentable project page:
    [​IMG]

    Issue Tracker:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Per-project forums and pages:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Other improvements over our current implementation for plugin releases:
    • Multiple authors per project with permissions handling (for example, you can have a Project Manager, Project Owner, Documenter, Translator, etc).
    • Per-project subscriptions so people interested in your project can follow its progress.
    • Curse provided hosting for your downloads
    • Extra exposure through Curse.com, a high traffic content hub for Minecraft, as well as other games.
    While it is still a little rough on the edges, both Curse and Bukkit are committed to providing the Minecraft community with the best solution we can offer developers to make sharing, managing and supporting their projects as smooth as possible. Please feel free to get your project up and running on BukkitDev (http://dev.bukkit.org) and let us know what you think of the new system (please report issues you have with the site here: http://www.curseforge.com/projects/curseforge/tickets/)!

    If all goes well, we hope to have this new site up and running in place of the unwieldy forum solution we currently employ as soon as possible. Once the majority of the active projects within the community have moved over, we'll be pushing towards phasing out our temporary forum solution.
     
  2. Offline

    xLoGiiKzZo

    Alright thx to you and obnoxint. Hopefully the new Craftbukkit will come out over the weekend.
     
  3. Offline

    lbjdaking23

    I have been waiting for 3 days now for approval :(
    http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/gamerfm/

    I have been seeing

    This project has no files!
    Please check out our Getting started guide for more information on project management.
    Please note that your project will not syndicate until your project has at least one beta or release file and has been approved by a moderator.

    and I uploaded a file
     
  4. Offline

    dew

    It would be really nice to have a rating system for plugins. That would make it easier to browse through multiple plugins that do the same thing and see which is more popular.

    Searching only by title would also be amazing. It sucks to search for a generically titled plugin, only to go through five pages of plugins that have that word in their description.
     
  5. Offline

    Rigby90

    Apologies majority of us have been busy testing 1.8 builds and dealing with bugs and reports. Will look into it.

    Ok just checked and it appears it has already been approved.

    Apologies again for it taking longer than it should, hopefully once the madness from 1.8 dies down we'll be back to normal.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2016
    lbjdaking23 likes this.
  6. Offline

    Evenprime

    Here is something I am missing. Give another option instead of "CB 1060" as the "game version". E.g. "CB dev build" or something. My plugin breaks with 1.8.1 and the new version isn't downward compatible to 1.7.3 versions of Bukkit, so it is confusing for people if I still use "CB 1060" as the game version.

    EDIT: btw. the automated version history of pages is nice, now I can just put a link to an old version up instead of writing multiple sections "this is for version X, this is for version Y, and if you are using version Z ...).
     
    obnoxint and SpaceManiac like this.
  7. Offline

    obnoxint

    *raises hand* same problem here!
    I updated a plugin in order to support the creative game mode but can't upload it without confusing the downloaders.
    An option like Evenprime suggested would help, so I can adjust the option as soon as the RB is out.
     
  8. Offline

    BBFPaco

    Very good questions. I also like seeing a forum where I can follow a discussion. I keep up to date by reading the flow of posts. Taking this away could be bad. Will it still be there?


    Also, is the old list going to be replace by this new one? Will there be an option to turn off descriptions?


    Old List: http://plugins.bukkit.org/#ti=&ta=all&au=&subm=false&pno=0
    New List: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/?category=admin-tools&letter=p
     
  9. Offline

    desht

    I like dev.bukkit.org - it's the way forward IMHO - but the Files upload system is a real weak point at the moment:
    • CB 1185 is out now, but it still hasn't been listed as a build when uploading
    • Approval delays seem really bad right now - I've had a minor release uploaded for over a day and it's still pending. What's the point of these approvals anyway? I can just paste a direct link to it anywhere I want and people can still download it.
    • I'll add my voice to the suggestion from @Evenprime and @obnoxint - we need a "dev build" or similar tag for the game version.
     
  10. Offline

    Brettflan

    It did take them a while, but they've just added CB 1185 and 1.8.1 to the version list.
    Fully agreed about the approval process, but they've indicated they'll be looking to come up with a better system for that in future.
     
  11. Offline

    Cognito guy

    Why isn't my normal bukkit account working on bukkitdev?
     
  12. Offline

    Evenprime

    BukkitDev = Curse.com . You'll need a curse.com account for BukkitDev, they are seperate entities.
     
  13. Offline

    Windwaker

    Is BukkitDev here to stay? Is Fill not happening?
     
  14. Offline

    Drakia

    Fill was cancelled when they switched to this completely wrong idea that "BukkitDev" would fill our needs :)
     
  15. Offline

    ThatBox

    :3 My project was approved but my files weren't. :(
     
  16. Offline

    Captain Chaos

    A small bug report regarding the Files view: the Date column auto-updates if you leave the page open, but the other columns appear not to. At least the Status column does not; if a file is approved the Files view does not reflect it until you reload it.

    It seems to me that either all columns should auto-update, or none of them should. The current situation is a bit confusing.
     
  17. Offline

    alexanderpas

    The date column updates over time due to client side javascript that gets fed the actual timecode.
     
  18. Offline

    Celtic Minstrel

    I agree that it's a bit odd though.
     
  19. Offline

    Voxel Box

    This may have been answered earlier, but a quick scan of this thread only showed people complaining about not uploading their files because of the Terms of Service, and the administrators replying that it is for "a reason" that the system is like that.

    But WHY do you need those kinds of property rights to our plugins?

    I would appreciate something other than "there is a reason why" as the answer.

    Thanks in advance.
     
    Inscrutable likes this.
  20. Offline

    lukegb Retired Staff

    To put it simply, Curse doesn't want to be sued if you upload something, delete it again and they still have copies in their backup storage. Since they undoubtably back up to non-rewritable storage media it would be impractical for them to delete all the copies they hold of your intellectual property, so they retain the right to store, but not display, it.

    In addition you may upload something malicious and delete it before it gets seen by an administrator. If they didn't store a copy they would not be able to hand evidence over to applicable law enforcement.

    If you're more specific about the terms you're objecting to and why you feel we don't need those rights, we'll look into it further.
     
    md_5, HmmmQuestionMark and iPhysX like this.
  21. Offline

    Voxel Box

    Okay, let's look at this:

    Essentially this is us giving you all the rights to our works and plugins. Let's compare this to GitHub.com's (has a few similar features to BukkitDev) Terms of Service:

    So, I ask again, why do you does Curse need those property rights for BukkitDev?

    (Also, I am not specifically asking you, luke. This is directed at any BukkitDev/Curse people. I was told by SwearWords to get in touch with a higher-up.)
     
  22. Offline

    thedeadlybutter

    How do you expect people to use this new "Great Service" when it requires people to give up all of their rights to their work? That's not "Great", that's bad. I think curse needs to fix their terms of service, because it is uncalled for and unfair.

    Bukkit, I think you and curse need to have a talk about the rights plugin developers should have, and what rights they shouldn't have.
     
  23. Offline

    SwearWord

    No one is forcing you to use it. BukkitDev provides you an opportunity to manage your project and connect with your users. Yes there are terms of use with this free service, you're completely free to disagree with them and opt of using it.

    Personally, I think it is bit strange to think a plugin is so special that it's worth claiming some intellectual rights over, everything can be replicated anyway with or without your code. If you've created some genius algorithm that one day you can profit off of, I apologize, I guess I'm wrong, but maybe you shouldn't be trying to share it with the world if it's so important. I just try not to take myself too seriously and run into less of these problematic situations.

    Legally, please keep in mind CraftBukkit/Bukkit is LGPL, so you may not even have the rights you think you do. Also if you read the Curse ToS closely, they only claim non-exclusive rights, you're not giving up anything. You can still do anything you want with your plugin.

    That's pretty much all I can do to assuage concerns, if you're still uncomfortable with it then you're going to have to find a different way to distribute your content.
     
  24. Offline

    Gavjenks

    That is fair enough, but the reason why TheVoxelBox is posting (and me, I am another admin there), is not due to having any issue with this policy.

    The reason why we are posting is that you removed files we posted, and links to external downloads in our descriptions.

    1) There is nothing in the ToS I see that says you can't upload links, or text files.

    2) Removing these links does not conform to any of the logic provided in the quoted "reason" above. I was 100% happy for curse to have non-exclusive, world-wide, etc. rights to my text file that described a link to a download page.

    And since I am willing to let you have those rights, then you didn't have to worry about deleting your copies in backup storage. Thus, the quote above does not explain why such files and links were removed.

    Whether bukkit devs may or may not have rights to my plugins is not the issue being discussed here. The issue is whether CURSE has rights to my plugin. And the answer to that is most definitively NO, unless I expressly hand over such rights.

    Hogwash. The more people you hand out rights to, the more competition you have both for A) any potential future profitability, and B) rights to claim ownership and recognition for the work. Those are both real costs. Additionally, the more influential the people you hand out rights to, and the more of an itnernet presence the have, the higher these costs.

    Giving a full licence to my nextdoor neighbor? Meh, he can't advertise as well as I can to the right people, so who really cares? But Curse has an entire machine set up pretty much exclusively to do EXACTLY that. So they can cause large amounts of damage to our advertising and recognition efforts for our server if they wanted to and had rights.

    Erm, no. It can't. Can you reverse compile it? Sure. But if a third party tries to sell that reverse compiled code without permission, I and/or bukkit folks (whichever mix of us have rights) can sue that third party for it and win. Same goes for code which I have no evidence that you reverse compiled, but which is still the same code when you look at it, or does exactly the same things.

    Nobody is forcing you to delete our workaround, either. Again, nothing in the ToS says we can't avoid the issue in the way we did (or anybody else out there who wishes to avoid giving Curse code by simply posting an external link), so why is it necessary to harrass us and delete files and text?
     
    Inscrutable likes this.
  25. Offline

    tweir

    The only real difference between Curse's license, and Github's license is that Curse's lawyers are slightly more detail-oriented, and Github uses, better, cleaner, and straight-forward language. Not surprising, given that Github's target market is very picky about such things.

    I.e. Curse can display the materials, copy them across their systems, the systems of others (CDN,rss,etc.), and should you terminate the agreement, not be bound to immediately wipe the materials from their systems.

    The differentiation between user submissions and submitted projects is key. They don't need to strip out submitted comments (perpetual grant), but they do need to remove source code, etc.

    Any time you deal with corporate types, you deal with their lawyers.

    That said, this remark by SwearWord regarding the LGPL was amusing:
    LGPL is the kinder, gentler, GPL. It basically limits the viral nature of the GPL to the specifically licensed intellectual property. I.e. if you change the LGPL'd library, you are obligated to distribute the source. If you link to a LGPL library, there are no inherent licensing requirements, as long as your software, and the LGPL software are inherently separable. I.e. exe & dll, or separate jar files.

    You can distribute binary-only copies of your bukkit plugins without triggering any license requirements.

    tl;dr: Move along, nothing to see here.

    Disclaimer: IANAL, but have dealt with a number of commerical/FOSS license agreements over the 15 or so years that I've been doing software development.
     
  26. Offline

    SwearWord

    @Gavjenks
    Okay I see your point, I would say if you do feel so strongly, do not release the plugin. Also the reason your files were removed was because you can't choose to not agree to the ToS and then use the service anyway. And to be honest, I think merely creating a project implies you agree to shares rights with Curse, regardless of what you upload so your workaround may not even be a workaround.

    As stated before by Rigby, non-plugin files will not be approved, that is a Bukkit policy. I'd still argue that everything, from what I've seen, can be replicated without any decompiling. Just like Minecraft itself can be replicated without looking at a single line of code, but I don't think we need to get into that.
     
  27. Offline

    SpaceManiac

    I only skimmed, but to be fair, I'm pretty sure agreeing to the TOS counts as such.
     
  28. Offline

    Voxel Box

    Nah, it's getting released. Don't lose any sleep over it.

    Nobody is forcing us to use it, but think about how convenient (for all the Minecraft servers that Curse cares deeply for) it would be if you just let developers put the content they want? In these 17 pages of this thread, the issue has come up time and time again, and my replies here got 3 likes in 12 hours.


    Find a different way? We have that "different way," with over 500,000 pageviews on one page alone. Here's the full listing, if you are doubting me.

    http://www.voxelwiki.com/minecraft/VoxelSniper (524,000)
    http://www.voxelwiki.com/minecraft/VoxelDoop (40,000)
    http://www.voxelwiki.com/minecraft/VoxelPort_2 (52,000)
    http://www.voxelwiki.com/minecraft/VoxelMore (24,000)
    http://www.voxelwiki.com/minecraft/VoxelMimic (22,000)
    http://www.voxelwiki.com/minecraft/VoxelGadget (16,000, and released less than 2 months ago)


    We simply wanted to make our plugins more widely available. I guess 500+ YouTube videos (searching both Voxel Sniper and VoxelSniper in QUOTES), 62,000 Google results, and over 500,000 total page views will suffice.

    I hope other plugin developers know what they are doing when they submit their plugins to BukkitDev.



    We may be submitting a jar file to BukkitDev though, for our plugins. There is still hope.
     
    Inscrutable likes this.
  29. Offline

    cyberdude

    @Voxel Box
    I just noticed something in your signature. You're a team of developers, and one of your guys is the one responsible for BukkitDev (EvilSeph). Why don't you take it up with him? ;)
     
    Inscrutable likes this.
  30. Offline

    Gavjenks

    or... you could just not make up unnecessary policies that undermine your own project?

    I mean, we probably WONT release the plugin files (on this website, in file format) if you guys insist on this, but I can't fathom why you are insisting on it. You would not be violating the curse ToS by allowing text files and such, and all you are accomplishing is turning away and alienating plugin developers.

    In this specific case, the developers that you guys chose to showcase at minecon as every single example of bukkit. And now sniper (and many other peoples' plugins) probably won't even be mentioned now on bukkit's website, for reasons that aren't even being forced on you by Curse?

    How does that further bukkit's cause?


    No, I did agree to the ToS. It doesn't even let you to the download screen otherwise. If it says I did not, that is an error. Could you kindly send me a link so that I can?

    No, it does not say anything of the sort. It says that IF you upload content, then they can do blah blah. I haven't uploaded my plugin here ever. So they have no rights over it, even though I agreed to the ToS. That is not contradictory.

    And the "workaround" I mention is only a workaround to bukkit's policies, not a workaround to Curse. Going by their ToS alone, Curse shouldn't care at all if my files are text files.

    Still, not one staff member has answered why this is the case. The explanation about being allowed to keep things in backup was not a relevant reason for any of this.

    Still no explanation about this, either. Even if your policy is [inexplicably] only zip or jar files, that doesn't explain removing our external links in the text descriptions.

    So what?

    Copyright law does not care at all about the method by which you copy somebody's work - whether it be by observation or decompiling.

    If I start selling copies of Harry Potter, it is illegal. Doesn't matter if I scanned it, or stole the author's flash drive, or read it aloud and had it transcribed by a monk. If the story is the same, it is infringement, and she could sue me. Same goes for plugins, copied by ANY means.
     
  31. Offline

    SwearWord

    @Gavjenks
    I'm not trying to argue with you at all. I'm just following the policies that have been given to me, I did not make them up nor have I ever said I agree with any of them. If really feel like you need to shoot the messenger, go ahead but getting hostile with me isn't going to help you very much.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page