I'm back ?!

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by xXMaTTHDXx, Oct 30, 2014.

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  1. Offline

    xXMaTTHDXx

    Hey Bukkit, ever since the whole DCMA incident I kinda abandoned Bukkit... I for some odd reason had logged back today, to see the old community to see what was left. To my surprise the community has not given up, I was pretty happy as Minecraft and Bukkit where what got me into programming and I am happy to see the community sustaining. Ill be hanging around the Plugin Development forum helping the ones who need it. If you need something feel free to PM me, I don't bite.
     
  2. Offline

    mrcheeseface2

    You've missed out on the news. They are working on the 1.8 right now. They are just trying to get rid of the DCMA :D
     
  3. Offline

    pookeythekid

    mrcheeseface2 Who's "they"? To my knowledge, the entire development team resigned.
     
  4. Offline

    mrcheeseface2

  5. Offline

    pookeythekid

    mrcheeseface2 Ah. Well until the DMCA clears (whether it be in Mojang or Wolvereness' favor), I imagine it'll be pretty hard to get any progress done.
     
  6. Offline

    DrPyroCupcake

    Where did you hear that from?
     
  7. Offline

    Hawktasard

    His dreams.
     
  8. Offline

    tenny1028

    Dinnerbone doesn't seem to be making any progress, or he hasn't posted any updates about it. What's up?
     
  9. Offline

    Hawktasard

    He was going to update it to 1.8, But that was (probably) before the DMCA.
     
  10. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    Hawktasard Yeah, he 'was' going to update it but that was indeed before the DMCA.
     
    Hawktasard likes this.
  11. Offline

    pookeythekid

    AdamQpzm Wasn't that after the development team quit, though?
     
  12. Offline

    JaguarJo Retired Staff

    Chain of events as I observed them (extremely simplified version):

    August 21st: EvilSeph announces that Bukkit will not be updating to 1.8 and the project is essentially closing.

    August 21st after Seph's announcement: Dinnerbone makes tweet saying Mojang owns Bukkit and he will personally update it to 1.8.

    September 3rd: date on the DMCA notice. Distribution of CraftBukkit files locked down.

    September 6th: largest majority of BukkitDev Staff retire. A few had retired before this and a few retired after. Check goodbye threads for dates if you need specifics.

    Oh, and somewhere in there Microsoft bought Mojang.
     
    AdamQpzm likes this.
  13. Offline

    pookeythekid

    JaguarJo And all of this was within a couple of weeks. I don't think timing gets any more odd than this.
     
  14. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    pookeythekid Bare in mind the DMCA most likely wouldn't have happened if Mojang hadn't interfered. The Bukkit site would have most likely continued as stated in EvilSeph's announcement.
     
  15. Offline

    JaguarJo Retired Staff

    I see it more as a snowball/domino effect. One thing just sort of naturally leads into the rest. Or maybe kind of like how good things and bad things always seem to happen in clumps. Life just happens that way; it isn't because someone plans it all out ahead of time.
     
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  16. Offline

    pookeythekid

    AdamQpzm That may be true, but I think someone was bound to wake up and notice the license conflicts at some point. Now--or rather, a couple months or so ago--just happened to be that time.
     
  17. Offline

    asofold

    Looking at it from now, neither seems very appealing to me, because some people have shown their approach to the thing ("it must end (now)"). At least the "site" is being continued for now, and there may be mods for 1.8 implementing the Bukkit API or a fork of it. Imagine the DMCA at a point when other forks of CraftBukkit for 1.8 had been created with a great deal of effort.
     
  18. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    asofold Bukkit was always intended to remain open for support and such, only the development wouldn't have continued. Undoubtedly more projects would have still sprung up as people would have wanted updated servers. The downloads would still be there, and in my opinion, the community would have been there for a time too. Bukkit could have gracefully faded away, if that's what it was destined to do.

    But no, Mojang had to cause a lot of ruckus with no (positive) results :(
     
  19. Offline

    asofold

    EvilSeph knew about Mojang. They could as well have reached out for a new project lead and staff to have the project be continued gracefully instead of declaring it to phase out slowly, literally blocking progress intentionally. The front-page-reasoning seemed to be "EULA -> End of modding and Bukkit", which is pretty annyoing to read.
    The licensing issues could have been brought to attention without a DMCA.
    Concerning who did what: (open)
    Bukkit exists (GPL, stupid) -> Bukkit join Curse (+rumors, probably reasonable) -> Bukkit developers join Mojang (+rumors, probably reasonable) -> Secretly Mojang obtains rights to something around Bukkit (probably reasonable) -> new developers join Bukkit (reasonable) -> managment of Bukkit (and maybe others) do something stupid by not trying to find successors nor managed to integrate better concepts -> EvilSeph does something stupid by declaring end of project without mentioning possibility of continuation -> Mojang does something potentially stupid by rushing into seizing project lead and repository -> Wolvereness does something stupid with a DMCA -> Microsoft buys Mojang (negotiations already were going on for months, probably not stupid :p).

    Now find a point between those things were it had not been possible to do something differently, to talk with each other (including the community) and to try to integrate new concepts? It's not that i demand that every open source project has a flawless top-grade managment, but things don't match up with just blaming Mojang.
     
  20. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    asofold Why would Bukkit have needed a new project lead? EvilSeph was happy to remain as project lead while Bukkit gracefully phased out. The problem wasn't that EvilSeph didn't want Bukkit to continue, and it wasn't just because of the EULA. It was because it was struggling to find enough volunteers who were willing and able to continue the development.

    Maybe there should have been greater communication between Bukkit and Mojang. But when it comes down to it, I blame the company for that over the community run project.
     
  21. Offline

    MordorKing78

    Lol xXMaTTHDXx made this post not to talk about DMCA (I Think). :confused:
     
  22. Offline

    asofold

    You name it: "phasing out" is killing the project. Let's rephrase it: declaring the "end of development" means that the project is not being continued. I don't see how you can be happy with suffocating a project slowly, gracefully if you will.
    Isn't it a little bit obvious that new approaches had been needed ahead of time? Managment failed to find a way to continue, ahead of time - or even worse, did any of them know what would happen and even intended to kill the project? There probably never had been any "they" within "managment", but it poses no difference if it had been just one.
    Wherever you pick your version from, "letting it end gracefully" is not such a clean thing. While they had no obligation to continue it themselves, they did hold some responsability to make it continuable, because the project has been built on and with a lot of community effort (including their own of course), which then again means exchanging or at least "renewing" the team lead (managment...) in time, for lack of motivation and concepts. With EvilSeph knowing about every bit of the ownership situation ahead of time, don't you think it odd, that nobody seems to have noticed any substantial renewal attemps concerning the team lead or at least direction of things?
    I'm not intending to state whom to blame for all that, probably i am being too harsh.
    "that over" ? The project lead had just turned down the community with "let's end development and not have it continued, not even by others".

    Right, i guess it should be: "Welcome back!"

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2016
  23. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    asofold I'd like to see a quote where EvilSeph forbade further development of it.
     
  24. Offline

    asofold

    Certainly you need a good bit of imagination to to write some of what you wrote. So let's quote some bits of the "goodbye" post:
    Not like a continuation.
    Doesn't read as "we continue", and even less like "Bukkit can continue".
    It does read as pretty "final".
    Maybe skip this one, but "end" again.
    Appears to prepare an "end".
    At first it may seem tempting to assume that this sentence can be related to the "end" of something related to what EvilSeph was writing the whole post about, probably it has to be seen in the context of that post, or what the post might have been refering to.
    Anybody who reads this as a "shutdown" of something might be mistaken because it has been taken out of context.
    Certainly this has nothing to do with halting any development.
    Like in the past one would need a lot of imagination to read from that, that they were trying to keep secrets or at least other developers at some distance. At least it's certain that this has nothing to do with trying to prevent others from continuing the project.
    Thanks so much for holding tight to it all, and after re-reading: thanks AdamQpzm for sharing your view on this, it almost took me off my feet, lucky me - was sitting in a chair. I'll probably send you a post-card from my weekend visit near Beteigeuze, probably it's going to be planet "DMCA" again.
     
  25. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    asofold All of that is in regards to the official build of Bukkit from the team as it was, though - Bukkit and CraftBukkit were both open source so anyone could have continued it if they so desired.
     
  26. Offline

    asofold

    So they ended/killed the project. Why prevent continuation within the official Bukkit project?
    Exclusion rather than renewal, though new methods are fine.
     
  27. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    asofold The post clearly explains that they were on shaky legal grounds. Admitting that while encouraging others to work on these same shaky ground would have been somewhat hypocritical.
     
  28. Offline

    asofold

    That's the point where i would detach a little bit from that text, one shouldn't believe everything just so. While the DMCA from side of contributors is a threat to the project, Mojang does not seem to be any interested in taking down CraftBukkit and probably never had been. On the contrary, they stated that they tolerate the methods CraftBukkit is using. It should be very difficult to construct harm for anyone from there on, also regarding that CraftBukkit has been exisiting in that state for a longer time.

    Shaky legal ground towards Mojang is not a very good reason, not only regarding what's been mentioned above, but also considering that Mojang can kill off modding for future versions by client + server changes anyway - now the EULA and Mojang "enforcing it" has to step in to justify the sudden appearance of that shaky legal ground - not very convincing, for given reasons.

    While one might feel uncomfortable with mixing in with decompiled code and depend on the good will of Mojang all the time, the actual shaky legal ground would be the licensing of the project itself and has nothing to do with Mojang, other than Mojang not being able to repair the ill-advised licensing of the Bukkit project from outside. You could argue that they are not willing to repair it, but it's quite reasonable not to make the server code open-source right now, one can't seriously complain about that. Acquiring rights to Bukkit was a two-bladed thing, there is also some fog concerning if Curse owned some of what was acquired by Mojang beforehand, and finally you can't really blame Mojang for chosing either timing of interfering or not interfering, because either way can cause either reaction, it's just not simple.

    Now what remains is mostly concern, rather not facts - so the proper move can not be "saving mankind from the shaky legal ground", there are other server mods too and people aren't stupid. Some people wanted to end Bukkit/CraftBukkit for whatever reasons, simply. Both concerns and explanations are all good reasons to step down, but not to kill a long ongoing project that even isn't yours to end, because Mojang acquired rights to it, considering that you even knew that it was not yours to end (note that EvilSeph knew the conditions of getting hired by Mojang).

    Now that the post doesn't seem to make all that much sense to me, the similarly strange and rushing reactions of all involved parties do indicate, that something else instead of just calm reasoning has been going on behind the scenes. Probably people freaked out after information has been leaked about ownership or maybe even about Micrsoft buying Mojang, maybe politics took over and after some time people start telling fairy tales.

    The reaction from side of Mojang also seemed somewhat rush, so i don't mind you blaming them for such.

    Damn, too long.
     
  29. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    asofold First, it was a long post, it's a shame my reply won't be long also :p

    I have to admit the license wasn't a good choice for the Bukkit project, as it opened up the opportunity for any of the contributors to do what Wolvereness did. Fortunately they did not until now. However, regardless of the license choice, the project would have always been on shaky legal ground due to the fact that Mojang never have given permission for them to use & distribute their code. Mojang were definitely okay with it, but would they always be okay with it? If they always were going to be okay with it, why didn't they just give them permission to do it? Such questions were probably always bothering those running the project, leading to the whole uncertainty.

    But your final point is definitely something I agree with - I wouldn't be objecting so much if Mojang had handed this better. Making a public announcement like they did on Twitter wasn't the best idea. They say they wanted to react quickly, but that's not always the better way to do it. Maybe contact the team in private, or work on an official blog post that's more thought out or something and then keep people from losing hope by announcing on Twitter that they're talking to the team or working on a reaction statement or whatever they're doing... Twitter should be used for bringing attention to an announcement, not as an announcement itself. Mojang don't seem to understand that. I also got the impression from some of the tweets/messages in the IRC channel at the time were a bit snide. Mojang's handling here didn't exactly scream professionalism.

    Edit: Post went on a bit longer than intended so not too bad I guess!
     
  30. Offline

    xXMaTTHDXx

    Well, that escalated quickly...
     
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