GUI and Models - A call to Action!

Dear Bukkit,
I am a long time Minecraft player. Im also a server owner. Being both with the current development of Minecraft has been fun but difficult at best. Adding custom visual features to the server is next to impossible. This gives servers with an exciting vision of a unique world a difficult task.

In my time I've notice the Minecraft community is unknowingly starving for GUI interaction, and the capability to push models to a client. Communities like Half-Life 2 and GMod have long benefited and prospered from this. Allowing Servers to set an interactive and custom environment for their players.

Mojang, Notch and Minecraft have dropped the ball on this. And its a big ball. It seems they are taking a back seat to this whole issue leaving the modding community to fill the gap. Giving the community segmented directions where a person that wants to join a server with these capabilities cant use any custom client, they need a client for that specific server.

As a player I would like to ask that you(the modding groups) all work together To develop a GUI and custom modeling standard. A standard that any talented 3D programer can make their own streamlined client that will work on any server with it. A standard that allows plugin developers that work between Mods to have a base standard they will know.

This is a Standard that may require you all to come together as a group in itself. While its an effort I would love to take on, programing is a talent I do not have. I can provide web space and even a domain for you to work together if needed.

Please unit and take on this effort for us players and server owners. The passionate Minecraft community needs a united group to lead this effort as much as they need these exciting features. Please join together in the minecraftforum.net discussion and communicate together to execute a open standard for server to client communication in the areas of GUIs and Models.

Please join the discussion, lead the effort at: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/908740-gui-and-models-a-call-to-action/
Thank you,
Machete Panda

 

Look up Spout.
You're welcome.

 

http://www.getspout.org/

 

I think I actually mention it. Re-read please.

Haha... it seems that way. No one else seems to be getting on the ball. But then thats my point.

 

I did a quick ctrl-f for Spout and got nothing.
My point is rather simple, Spout is working on everything you're asking for.

I'm not entirely sure what else you're expecting from the modding community.

 

Are you familiar with developing industry standards? This post might be one thats a bit beyond your(no offence intended). Ok so, this is a bit more indepth discussion and I dont want to take away from this post with more industry savy readers. But Standards, enable a person developing a tool, to develop the tool in such a way that it works with multiple software.

Take the internet for example. There are multiple sites and multiple browsers to view these sites. HTML allows different sites to generate a code that different browsers can read. Now lets apply that to Minecraft. There are different server mods(Bukkit, Canary... ect). But if developing a GUI, you need a client to read it. There could be a Bukkit GUI or a Canary GUI and you would need a Bukkit Client(the Minecraft.exe) or a Canary Client(think baout how Spout needs Spoutcraft). However if there is a standard method for GUIs communicating, then the Bukkit client could read a server running Canary mod. Agian, this applies to when these mods get GUI capabilities.

Or maybe you are aware of Standards and dont realize this but... Spout is not a standard. Its a Server Mod(it will be soon, they are working on it) and a client executable.

I hope this helps you understand the difference between standards vers a single mod. Standards = gamers able to mix their client and server mod of choice together with out issue.

 

CraftBukkit is NOT a client mod. CraftBukkit is the SERVER. The server CANNOT edit things in the client like the interface. It would require a client mod to do so, and CraftBukkit is a server, not a mod, and I doubt they would make a client mod, because then things become a mess.

 

I'm a professional game programmer, I'm certain I'll be able to keep up with your posts.
There's no need to get all condescending, you never know who you're talking to on the internet
I however will admit a certain level of irony as I was sharing similar feelings as I was reading your first post.
Let's call it a misunderstanding.

Now, onto your post.

I gave you a rather short reply as I didn't find Spout in your main post.
Spout is probably the best chance we currently have for your wishes outlined in your post.

The modding community as it is, is not really in a position to develop standards. The "design by committee" anti-pattern comes to mind.
It is simply not possible to get such a large community to develop, maintain and most importantly adhere to a community developed standard.
This leaves just Mojang, a party we certainly won't influence with such forum threads.

The only reasonable possibility I see is multiple competing parties working towards this goal.
Competition will encourage the parties involved to improve and iterate on their design.
Just like how Bukkit was created to address the many concerns the authors of Bukkit had over hMod.
And now Spout is being created by their difference in development philosophy with Bukkit.

 

The only one who decides over minecraft standards is Mojang. We can modify things to our liking, but we cannot make this stuff standard.

That's why we are a modding community...

 

You seem to be quite pushy of a GUI API for CraftBukkit, considering this is your second thread about it. And while it may seem like a great idea, it's quite obvious why developers are quick to second guess and many times reject this topic.

• Spout has a GUI API, good, but that requires a client to use, run, etc.
• CraftBukkit does not, meaning anyone can login, and experience the same without any mess.

This is why their is no CraftBukkit mod, it just creates a mess for users and developers. A client mod on Spout require knowledge of the Spout server, Spoutcraft API, and more. Bukkit, just has plugins, drop in the jar, and go. There is no true requirements to run, experience, or enjoy a CraftBukkit server. For Spout, you don't get the experience unless you download a client, and even then, Spout is new, and has a long way to go before it's polished and stable like CraftBukkit.

Also, you're talking about a game, since when have you seen a standard, that actually survives, for a game? Heck, point out anything that has a true standard, even the internet doesn't have a standard, there's HTML5, Flash, Silverlight, CSS3. Needless to say, people are always fighting for a standard, but there is too much stuff to ever actually create a standard, you can't just switch every website over to HTML5 without time, money, and problems.

 

Im sorry... where did I say Craftbukkit IS a client mod? Just let me know so I can fix that. Cause Im sure I didnt. I might have said you would need a client mod if craftbukkit had a GUI standard.

Im sorry I did not want to come across condisending. Your when it sounded like you were not able to follow I drew me to the conclusion I needed to set a stage for for understanding why standards are important. Please excuse me for that, I didnt mean to sound condescending. Its funny cause I was actually trying to be helpful for not just you but anyone reading this. I hope no one feels left out after finding out that someone with a bit more knowledge would feel like that much detail is condescending. Its ok that some people reading this are not familiar with why standards are necessary.

Its ok that you didnt find spout. Im used to people not reading full threads at this point. So in my thread I include a link here: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/908740-gui-and-models-a-call-to-action/ and in that link I go on to speak about spout. You would have had to read the whole thing to catch the link, so I understand.

Now I do believe spout is heading in the direction of the future. But being that spout itsself is not a standard, it would pain me to see the commuinty split and go in differnt directions. That can lead to a point where a player could need 2 or 3 different clients to play mutiple differnt servers using Spout server(soon to be out from the spout team), or Bukkit server mod, or Canary server mod.

I do disagree with the idea that the modding community is too large to develop these standards. Think how large the internet is and HTML is working for them. We really only have a few development groups that would need to get together for this to work... Bukkit, Canary, Spout, ect(I dont know the others).

On to Mojang, I agree with you. They have absolutly dropped the ball on this from an outsiders point of view. I havent seen much effrot to bring these communities together. We are at the cross roads of having mutiple cients for each server mod that has a GUI.

When you talk baout multiple competing parties, that is what you want to avoid. for the above mentioned reason(multiple client executables) and what works on one server doesnt work on the other. Its bad enough that Minecraft doesnt come with a GUI and you need to Grab you favorite servers GUI enabled client(like Spoutcraft) but think about having to have 3 clients to play your group of favorite servers.

Pointing to your comment on Bukkit adressing what was left off by hMod. I was disagree that you can compair. In the case you mention your talking still being able to use the same client. What I want to avoind is the player needing 2 or 3 clients to play their favorite group of servers. So the bukkit vers hMod did not affect the end gamer the way a GUI enabled tool would.

On your last sentence. YES Im looking forward to spouts efforts too. It will probably be a while before my favorite server side plugins are set up for it, but I have a feeling I will be switching to it if the copetition remains weak.

 

@steaks4uce
The internet does have a standard.

IPv4/IPv6
HTTP
TCP
etc.

Also, HTML5 and CSS3 are standards by definition (Used or accepted as normal or average).

Another thing not to expect anyone to do: follow links in posts.

When we read posts, we expect everything to be there. We prefer to not have to move the mouse over and click something. It takes us precious milliseconds out of our way.

One more note,
You say "Join the discussion here" but what if we don't want to join the discussion on another forum?

EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

 

In list type:
Your post demands a GUI API.
A GUI API requires a client mod to use.
And Bukkit doesn't use a Clientmod.

In the Java language:

Code:

$post = "We need a GUI API!";
if ($post.demands(Demand.CLIENT_MOD)) {
     Player p = getServer().getPlayer("steaks4uce");
     p.postMessage("That requires a client mod, nobody wants that.");
}

In proof form:
(Sorry if I screw up the math, it's been a white )
Let p = post
Let r = gui api
let b = bukkit

p (implies) r
b (does not imply) r
p (does not imply) b

Need more?

Not the connections, but the web coding and development standard. And no, they are not by definition, they are the standard because they are the original and "official" versions of the internet development, and they are endorsed by just about every company that knows (decent) development.

EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

 

@steaks4uce
Lol?

 

I read your entire first post. Then when I clicked the link I just saw a duplicate of the first post.
Hence I didn't read any further to see you added more content to that linked thread.
You're not making it easy on the readers like this

This actually might be an excellent example.
How long did it take to establish this standard? It took an incredibly long time, time we certainly don't have.
And even while HTML was standardized there are many competing non-standard flavors floating around.
The biggest example would be implemented by the notorious Internet Explorer 6.

HTML also didn't start out as the primary standard.
There were plenty of competing standards when HTML was creating to markup web content.
And even when it became the primary way to markup web content, many flavors still floated around.

Even now, HTML isn't an entirely solid standard.

 

Your point? No, bukkit doesn't current have a client. YES if bukkit had GUI capabilities it would need a client mod. All of which I said.

 

You're missing the fact that there will never be a client.

You obviously have never developed a website.

 

Its was a call to action... Naturally the place to work together wouldn't be on any single communities home turf.

Yes, and now understanding the importance HTML bring, why should we wait equally as long? Lets do this! Call to action!

I've developed 5 websites from scratch used at a professional capacity.

Listen... you dont want to be a part of the solution... move on to trolling the next thread. thx

EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

 

it seam to me you have mixed up GUI and protocol.

The GUI is the interface that allows users to interact with a game or other things and has nothing to do with the client talking to a server or the server talking to a client that would be a communications protocol.

as far as a Canary client or a Spout client talking to a server that is up to the dev's of Spout or Canary to pick if they want there client to talk to a server the does not support there client.

 

I'll refer to my original standpoint which is: it can't be done, not like this.
First there need to be several competing implementations before a solid standard can be created.
This process has worked for establishing many standards.

I'll further refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

 

It is not within the scope of the Bukkit project to create nor endorse any client modifications.

 

You seem to ignore the answers supplied by not just me...
There's only one solution to this, and I pray you get it in your head, CraftBukkit would have to develop a client mod in order to create something like this, and if they had, there wouldn't be Spout, so you can't say they will. There is no standard in a hobby market like this, Minecraft is not a big name title, nor is Bukkit or Spout. You're trying to compare a game written by a small company, to games with millions of dollars of funding and development.

 

According to Merriam-Webster:

HTML5 and CSS3 are established by an authority (W3C) and is accepted as a model for making websites.

I didn't mention anywhere that flash is never used, however, while flash is a standard by definition, it is not as common for websites to be made entirely from flash.

In fact, it is almost impossible to make an entirely flash website, because of the minimal HTML required to embed the flash object.

This can be countered by directly accessing the flash object itself, but it is prone to fail at some point (zoom issues etc.)

 

@Machete.Panda @steaks4uce @Vhab @tyzoid
Perhaps your conversation would be better served in a private conversation, as it seems to have veered very far from any sort of topic for this thread.

Furthermore, you all must know it is not appropriate to condescend and make rude remarks anywhere on these forums. Please stop.

 

Again I'll move forward on the discussion by saying yet again... Call to Action. It can be done if people do it.

First I'll refer to NuclearW's post #27 in this thread. I never said anything personal to you.

second, Bukkit not "creating nor endorsing any client modifications" is bukkits choice. So if bukkit chooses to begin endoring a standard for GUI "protocal" then they will. And again, this discussion is a Call to action.

Lastly as just as NuclearW says in post #27, please communicate further on this specific matter in private chat. If you dont want to be a part of the solution then get out of the way or move on to the next thread. This thread is a call to action. Not a call to inaction.

Don't want to do anything about it nor want to support such an effort, then just move on. Thanks.

 

The call to action has been answered, by Spout. Bukkit has no intentions (as said by @NuclearW) to create a client mod, which would be required to display or mod a GUI using server code. And if this is a call to action, and not specifically Bukkit, then why would you address the post to Bukkit? I fully support a GUI API, but it's been done and it's fine, what more action needs to be taken? They have created a stable and nice GUI API that works, why do we need another?

 

Its a call to action to bukkit and the community as a whole. You dont want to be involved. Move on. Stop trolling.

 

@Machete.Panda
You are being entirely inappropriate, just because he does not agree with your stance does not mean he is trolling. And you calling him that as well as telling him to "just move on" is similarly inappropriate.

You need to learn that not everyone will agree, and his post was entirely valid given the topic. Please do take some time to calm down before you come back to this thread, you'll see you are being very obtrusive and unwilling to change.

 

I would have loved to, and I planned to after my initial post, but you keep responding and rejecting the ideas of others because they don't think the same as you. Troll? I'm not, I'm defending my view point when you sit here and criticize it and others because you seem to ignore the facts stated by others.

 

and there official stance is no to client side modifications, so then its just you trying to get the community together, tbh spout already exists, is fairly well developed at this point

and then there is this:


now go away and go to canary mod, i hear they are reprogramming the entire project, maybe they will include this "feature"