Ever Notice How Dev's

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by VoidingNixx, Dec 23, 2011.

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  1. Offline

    VoidingNixx

    Ever notice how Dev's always expect you to kiss their asses? The quality of (edit) 'some' plugins is really bad, and some of these Dev's seem to be clueless. If you even criticize their work the slightest, they turn into real assholes. Now, I'm not too nice myself, but I just tell it how it is. When someone drops the ball, I let 'em know.

    10 bucks the first response is "Well if you can do it better, than go do it yourself" or some lame shit like that. Yes, the internet is full of trolls, ass kissers, and those who cannot take a bit of criticism, and it seems most of Bukkit's plugin Dev's fall into this category as well. This saddens me.

    A few Dev's I've run into could actual take it... they'll ask questions, hear you out, and make an effort... but some of these people you guys have in this community are a real joke!
     
    gameswereus, AlbireoX and chaseoes like this.
  2. Offline

    JWhy

    Serious devs get bucks via PayPal and the others turn into assholes... isn't that okay?
     
  3. Offline

    mindless728

    You know, maybe the reason a lot of the dev's do this is because there are so many ungrateful people who use our software and then cannot give us any feedback with errors (ie stack trace, what were you using/doing whe it happened, etc). I found when i first moved here the people using the software we made were much more appreciative where as now most of the people could care less and then just bitch when it doesn't work

    And yeah, if you are criticizing us, maybe you should take up programming and walk in our shoes for a few weeks and see how you like it, honestly a lot of good devs have tried to play ball with the users and to no avail, if ever i release another plugin, i will have a Don't bother me clause about my software and you would only be able to make support tickets

    And when you do come to use with criticism, make damn sure its constructive so we can actually fix the problem, and if you don't like it here GTFO and go use canary mod
     
    Jozeth, Technius, fysics and 3 others like this.
  4. Offline

    Kaikz

    They'll have more trouble with plugins and end up coming back here. Funny that.
     
  5. Offline

    deltahat

    I took a poll a while back of the bukkit developers. I learned that for 75% of the bukkit developers, Advanced Placement high school computer science is the highest level of programming training they have had and 60% are entirely self taught. What we can conclude from this is that MOST people who are developing plugins for bukkit are learning to program by making plugins. This goes to show how awesome bukkit is for making programming accessible to young developers. It also means you are the guinea pigs for the work of budding young developers. Yelling at them will accomplish nothing.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A49E0y2tiBEJIRfwN7HfcV4YdudZjlH_o9Z7yUvd3uY/edit?hl=en_US
     
    fysics, croxis and WalkerCrouse like this.
  6. Offline

    pyraetos

    All in all, mostly everyone can be a jerk. If it seems limited to developers, it's simply because they feel that they have less of a chance of being attacked for it, which is a dumb mindset.

    I always try to be as honest and helpful as possible to everyone I'm talking to. I guess I don't see making plugins in the same light as other people do, for instance I don't really care about the purple tag thing removal, and I have no comment about whatever sort of rank system for which people are pushing. I'm just having fun with it, learning new things and sharing the things I learn!
     
  7. Offline

    VoidingNixx

    Hmm... well, I'll reply with a few things I guess...

    First off, if you are going to release something you make to the public, you should expect to deal with people. If you do not wish to deal with anyone, then you should just release your work to the best of your ability, and ignore everyone completely. As long as it works and it is within how the Dev expects to have their code functioning, than it should be good enough... screw the people who complain about it. But when a Dev decides to deal with people and then come off as a jerk when they get frustrated, that in my opinion, is on their end.

    Secondly, yes, sometimes they do not receive any information, and just a user saying "It doesn't work." Whenever I report a problem, I always try to give examples and let people know what was happening at the time of the problem, and what actions were performed, etc. But again, if a Dev gets upset at people saying "It doesn't work" it is on their end because they decided to just not ignore the person. If people cannot help a Dev out any, they just need to be ignored.

    I'm not disagreeing saying that these Dev's get a rough time for the community... but I am saying that there are a lot of Dev's doing some really crappy work and when obvious problems do arise, they get all agitated. I'm running a few plugins right now, that just seem to have problem after problem after problem, and very simply, it is bad coding and not very well thought out implementation of their plugins... yet if I were to say "hey, make your stuff work, I have a problem 'this' 'this' and 'that' when I try to 'details of problem'" and then they come back throwing a hissy fit because their stuff doesn't work.... well, I think I have a right to be a bit on the offensive side, because it is my time they are wasting as well, when they tell me their stuff works, and sometimes, they need to be told "get on the ball or just do not write a plugin at all."

    The quality of some of these plugins have really seemed to drop, from earlier versions of Minecraft, and that's what I'm really trying to point out. It seems that Dev's are releasing plugins with more and more problems, trying to do all sorts of things with their plugin while some of their basic key features do not even work well... and for that, I blame the Dev. They can try the best they want, but just because I can try and swing a bat, doesn't mean I'm gonna go attempt to play in the Major League... I know my place and know better to try... but I hate when people advertise their plugins as working, when they really do not, or when they work half-ass.
     
  8. Offline

    mindless728

    @VoidingNixx First i would actually like to thank you (and wish a happy holidays) for responding with a very well mannered post

    Yes if releasing code to the public you are going to have to deal with some level of heat, whether it be good or bad, however we (as dev's) get jerked around a lot by the people who use our software. Based on the post you just wrote, i would say you are not one of them (hurray, welcome to the 1%), though i would expect more and more devs to be moving to the "I'm not going to listen to you group" especially with BukkitDev as anyone worth contributing will use the ticket system.

    On feedback, we usually get next to nil, and most people don't seem to realize that we need a lot of information (especially the stack trace) in order to fix the problem, and yes there will be dev's who get defensive about their work.

    As for the crappy quality of work being put out there, @deltahat did quite a survey and found that most dev's have little to no formal training when it comes to development and there are very few here that actually develop professionally (i would be one of those, alas i don't make anything public anymore). The quality dropping over time is because a lot of the dev's that were here initially and in the beginning of bukkit were from hMod and had some sort of background in programming plugins for minecraft and what following the API entailed, now a lot of these early developers have decided to leave for one reason or another and that hasn't helped the problem

    Now with the quality of the plugins aside, i can also say the quality of the average user of bukkit has fell dramatically as well since i have been here (almost a year now), when bukkit was first coming out with dev builds we had people that knew there would be problems and accepted and helped us with the problems as well, over time we got general users coming here that don't know anything about server administration let alone programming.

    What I am trying to get at here is that the quality of the average person here in general has been falling, but what we should really be doing is trying to get the general bukkit community more informed about what they need to do as users to help the developers and some developers need to show a little more support of their product instead of just putting something out there (hint there is a WIP section for a reason). All in all we shouldn't be sitting here stating problems with the community, we should be spending this time trying to better the community.
     
    VoidingNixx and Don Redhorse like this.
  9. Offline

    Afforess

    A long time ago, I foresaw this issue would occur and suggesting a opt-in rating standard for Bukkit plugins. The lowest rating, Iron dimly meant your plugins code wasn't terrible and wasn't malicious, whereas the diamond rating required that you responded to user problems civilly, and had documented code. This system and how to rate plugins was (and still is) laid out in a dead thread in Bukkit+ forum, which is why you probably never saw it.

    The real fun part is why it died. It had plenty of interest, but died as plugin developers balked at the diamond and gold requirement of civil treatment of users. Many developers preferred to call them names. I was appalled and just let the thread die after that. It's too bad, such a rating system would help admins steer clear of obnoxious and poorly written plugins.
     
    agafaba and fysics like this.
  10. Offline

    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

    As time has passed, more tutorials have become available which assist people with minimal programming skills in making a plugin. This is good in increasing accessibility of writing plugins but dilutes the "quality" of the developer population in terms of maturity, as you find more and more developers who are less experienced in programming and people skills. Additionally, with some of these developers when you post saying something is wrong, you are ruining their belief that they created the best plugin ever. They will take direct offense to that and will respond accordingly. Other developers suffer from a total lack of patience, coming into this not expecting that most users will be unappreciative and demanding.

    Posts like the one by @mindless728 demonstrate that many developers simply aren't ready for the reality of releasing projects to the public. Everyone wants their plugin to be universally loved without complaint.

    Sounds cynical, but I'm not sure there's many ways to solve this issue beyond adding a "How to deal with the harsh reality of user support" tutorial. :p
     
  11. Offline

    troed

    I'm actively recommending making Bukkit plugins as a good way to start developing for those young ones who are interested. Being able to use what you write yourself, show it to your peers and gain some recognition goes a long way in helping someone getting hooked on development.

    Those same reasons were why I wrote demos/intros on 16 bit computers as a teenager
    (That motivated me years later into getting a degree as a Software Engineer)
    ([Which is why I today, not actively doing development at work anymore, write Bukkit plugins])

    This happens to anything that becomes popular. It's still a good thing.

    "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."
     
    pyraetos likes this.
  12. Offline

    DrBowe

    While I'm not entirely disagreeing with this, I do believe that this is a bit unfair. Seven months ago, when I first started coding plugins actively, this community was absolutely superb. When I posted my first plugin, there was both praise and constructive bug reports (And it was a pretty crappy plugin, let me tell ya').

    But now? Hardly any feedback whatsoever. For god's sake, my plugin in WIP that I've poured a LOT of time into has gotten 1 bug report on its latest build, out of 340 downloads. This is not how Bukkit used to be. Honestly, I do blame a lot of this on BukkitDev. It's a great tool, but it literally tore the community straight in half. Now I hardly get any responses on my plugins. No praise, no complaints, no bug reports, nothing. Just downloads. I'd like to think that a pat on the back would be something simple for users to do, but apparently everything developers do is simply gratis and nothing more.

    And I'm certainly not an asshole by any means. I try as hard as I can to respond to and please anyone who does give feedback, but it's rather difficult to do with no feedback at all. God forbid a thank you or two, for that matter.

    [/end rant]
     
    WalkerCrouse and PatrickFreed like this.
  13. Offline

    TheBeast808

    I don't know about anybody else, but I rarely ever submit bug reports because Devs either ignore it or tell me that I need to post it elsewhere. The times when they don't ignore me and don't say to post it elsewhere, I rarely see any change. If it's not a major bug, they don't see them care about fixing it.
     
  14. Offline

    DrBowe

    @TheBeast808
    But what's the harm in simply submitting it anyways? There are plenty of devs who will actually listen to and respond to bug reports, but it does them no good if you are simply assuming they're pretentious pricks before you've even spoken to them :/
     
  15. Offline

    Afforess

    I've encountered too many users like you. They tell me they won't use my plugin because of some bug - a bug that has never been reported. I can't fix bugs I am not aware of. Most of the time, I can have a working fix in 20 minutes.

    I've even spent time helping admins track down bugs in other plugins and submitted pull requests to fix them.

    Back on topic - I don't see the situation changing here unless YOU want to make a change. You could start two lists - plugins whose developers are helpful and plugins whose developers are not. Nothing like a wall of shame to make people want to change.
     
    Technius, sukosevato and Wolvereness like this.
  16. Offline

    bluehasia

    yes bukit dev was a bad move. searching for plugings there is confusing and most plugin devs dont even set up a forums for there plugin page. and the post a comment is a nightmare i hate reading those things backwards
     
  17. Offline

    h0us3cat

    Code:
    2011-12-24 23:19:08 [SEVERE] Could not pass event PLAYER_JOIN to MinecartManiaCore
    
        at org.bukkit.plugin.java.JavaPluginLoader$1.execute(JavaPluginLoader.java:265)
        at org.bukkit.plugin.RegisteredListener.callEvent(RegisteredListener.java:58)
        at org.bukkit.plugin.SimplePluginManager.callEvent(SimplePluginManager.java:339)
        at net.minecraft.server.ServerConfigurationManager.c(ServerConfigurationManager.java:129)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetLoginHandler.b(NetLoginHandler.java:113)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetLoginHandler.a(NetLoginHandler.java:39)
    
        at net.minecraft.server.NetworkListenThread.a(SourceFile:94)
        at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.w(MinecraftServer.java:527)
        at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.run(MinecraftServer.java:425)
        at net.minecraft.server.ThreadServerApplication.run(SourceFile:457)
    @cb 1597 & mcm latest build from ci.:)
     
  18. Offline

    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

    I generally assume that developers who haven't set up an easy form of communication are the ones that previously with the forum posts system would just ignore your requests anyway. I've tried to make asking for support on my plugins simple with the forum feature being enabled. Though I'm not sure if it's enough.

    I know this is slightly offtopic but I consider it related enough to ask: Given the current dev.bukkit.org system, how would you prefer to receive support? The forum feature? The ticket feature? GitHub tickets? Forum PM? Email?
     
  19. Offline

    bluehasia

    I like the forum, i know the devs cant always be around and most of the time the player base can have the answer that been using the plugin
     
  20. Offline

    Afforess

    I feel like it's missing a line or two in there, because I can't see where the actual error occurs.
     
  21. Offline

    mindless728

    I actually like the combination of forum and ticket system, as the forum alllows users to help each other with configuration problems where as the ticket system allows the devs to handle problems with the code (or delete non issues)
     
  22. Offline

    Bertware

    Bukkitdev is a step backward for me. With the forums I got 1 place where everything was placed. I enabled e-mail alerts for my threads, so on every comment, bug report, question, I got a mail, and I used to react as fast as possible.

    Bukkitdev has about the same with reactions. Tough, users have to create a second account. Many users don't which result in a massive loss of comments, bug reports, ideas,....
    The forums: I tried one, one month after I discovered some people had used it. I don't get notifications for that.
    PM system isn't working well too. Bukkitdev doesnt show the "(1)" when a new post has been made in a conversation. I also don't get mail notifications when someone replied to a conversation.
    Due to this lack of notifications, I am quite slowed down in both development and interaction with users.
    Every file has to be approved: I can fix some bugs within 5 minutes, but then it takes hours before it is available to the public (my auto updater and alternate hosts are catching this problem for now)
    The ticket system is one of the fewadvantages. However, due to the required account people are mostly not to post bugs.

    I know this might seem very negative, but I just feel like we missed something out, we could have switched to something better...
    In my opinion we better kept using the forum, so no switch to bukkitdev, or another aternative (as there was fill, but that stopped?)

    I now use the ticket and comment system.
    I also agree with blueharsia, people help each other on the forum, that's less the case on bukkitdev.

    my conclusion: Use the forum accounts on bukkitdev, and good notifications. It would really help us very much.
     
  23. Offline

    tyzoid

    @mbaxter
    What I feel the problem is with bukkitDev, is that I need to check in multiple places to see if a user responded to something, has a question, or made a comment on any of my 3 pages.

    If we had an alert system like we have on the bukkit main site, and possibly an integrated alert system at that, it would make the lives of plugin developers like me soooooo much easier.

    Also, regarding what @DrBowe and @Afforess wrote,
    We can't help you if you don't ask for help. If the plugin developer feels like treating his users like a-holes, just don't use his plugin. There are plenty of alternatives for almost any plugin.

    Since I have been with bukkit, the community has been excellent, however, within the recent months, there have been an increasing amount of people that, quite frankly, I don't think know what java is beyond that annoying "java needs updating" popup. Some of these people can't seem to read big red headers, and can't seem to click on links.

    When we encounter a user like this, it annoys us plugin developers. These users are the type that will say "It dont work FIX IT PLEZE!!" and expect us to read their minds, and know what the problem is.

    Speaking for some of the devs of bigger plugins, there just isn't time to put up with them and respond to their requests. Without knowing what the problem is, and when it occurs, we can't track what is going wrong.

    Going back again to what DrBowe said regarding the lack of feedback:
    I often find with my plugin Colors, that the majority of posts I get is support requests e.g. "This doesn't work with essentials." While that is good and all, I too would like to hear from some of the other people once in a while and be told it works fine, or that it is a good plugin.
     
  24. Offline

    h0us3cat

    hmm...

    Code:
    2011-12-24 23:19:08 [SEVERE] Could not pass event PLAYER_JOIN to MinecartManiaCore
    java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.bukkit.World.spawnMinecart(Lorg/bukkit/Location;)Lorg/bukkit/entity/Minecart;
        at com.afforess.minecartmaniacore.world.MinecartManiaWorld.spawnMinecart(MinecartManiaWorld.java:649)
        at com.afforess.minecartmaniacore.world.MinecartManiaWorld.spawnMinecart(MinecartManiaWorld.java:635)
        at com.afforess.minecartmaniacore.minecart.MinecartManiaMinecartDataTable.toMinecartManiaMinecart(MinecartManiaMinecartDataTable.java:138)
        at com.afforess.minecartmaniacore.api.MinecartManiaCorePlayerListener.onPlayerJoin(MinecartManiaCorePlayerListener.java:44)
        at org.bukkit.plugin.java.JavaPluginLoader$1.execute(JavaPluginLoader.java:265)
        at org.bukkit.plugin.RegisteredListener.callEvent(RegisteredListener.java:58)
        at org.bukkit.plugin.SimplePluginManager.callEvent(SimplePluginManager.java:339)
        at net.minecraft.server.ServerConfigurationManager.c(ServerConfigurationManager.java:129)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetLoginHandler.b(NetLoginHandler.java:113)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetLoginHandler.a(NetLoginHandler.java:39)
        at net.minecraft.server.NetworkListenThread.a(SourceFile:94)
        at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.w(MinecraftServer.java:527)
        at net.minecraft.server.MinecraftServer.run(MinecraftServer.java:425)
        at net.minecraft.server.ThreadServerApplication.run(SourceFile:457)
    copy/paste be trolling
     
  25. Offline

    Lolmewn Retired Staff

    Oh you hijacker ^^

    As a plugin dev, I always find it hard having comments like "Uhh, this doesn't work :mad:".
    While obviously, it does work (otherwise I'd not release it). I always (partually or completely) test my plugins before releasing/updating them.

    And if I get bug reports, I always try to handle them with care, and when I have time, fix them.
    Since I'm just an ordinary 16 years old School going kid, I can only spend my free time on developing plugins.
    And I have to tell you, when I started developing plugins, I didn't know any java. I have to thank Samkio for teaching that through his tutorials. While developing these plugins, I got the hang of it, and decided to release some stuff. I found out RightLegRed's Sortal had become inactive, and decided to pick it up.
    Might not have been a good idea, but it was worth it.
    I saw a lot of code which made me think, which is a good think.

    I've come a long way from being a plugin user to being a plugin developer.
    And I'm the #3 highest poster :D
    I <3 plugin developers, they spend crazy much time on plugins, yet the majority of people tend to have a negative attitude towards plugin devs.
    I hear quite a lot of "Meh, he's not fixing my issue!!" or "Meh, He's ignoring meeeee !!".
    Well, plugin developers are normal people, it takes time to either fix an issue of find time to reply to every question a user has.
    With real big plugins or projects (like Spout or Spacebukkit) I can imagin that it's a hell of a job to make it even work at all, and still see if the community has an opinion.

    That was about it :)
     
  26. Offline

    DrBowe

    What I don't seem to get is that Plugin Developers are very widely under-appreciated. This is not a skill that can simply be picked up out of the blue, hence why the users come to developers for their plugin needs instead of coding themselves. Sure, tutorials can guide you through making a working plugin. But a unique one? With more than simple event handling? That is solely based on the creativity and knowledge of the developer, and how wiling they are to dedicate their free time to the learning of programming.

    And to be completely fair, it seems paradoxical that developers are often given next to none of the profits that are generated by some of the larger servers out there. Hell, Bukkit/Spout do all of their work for free, yet I doubt they get as many donations as they should for all of it. Without the custom server, and the hard work of developers who take the time to make their own modifications, these servers would quite literally be nothing more than vanilla Minecraft.

    And don't take this the wrong way, as I certainly don't expect any money, hence the lack of any 'donation' buttons on my plugins or in my signature. I do this for fun, just like the majority of developers out there. But still, it'd be nice for users to stop and think--even if only for a second--about how much developers contribute to their enjoyment (and for some, income and payment).

    Make no mistake, this is not directed at all of the users out there. Just a particular few that I have in my mind who act like spoiled brats when something doesn't go there way, or is taking longer to accomplish than they'd hoped. We are not your employees, we are simply people who are generous enough to share some of our products with you--free of charge. So when I see that someone has the nerve to boss around a developer and treat them like crap because of one minor bug? It's absolutely unacceptable.

    [/end rant 2]
     
    Rahazan likes this.
  27. Offline

    Evenprime

    I usually try to react to real bug reports within 24 hours. That doesn't mean I'll fix it in that time, or that I'll fix it at all ("it's not a bug, it's a feature"). My biggest problem with users is that half of the bug reports are:

    "Players can't fly, but I gave them the correct permissions. Please fix." I then answer pretty much always with a lenghty, relatively generic text "What permission did you give? What do you get if you type "xxx" in the console? Do you have plugin X, Y or Z?" (Edit: Those instructions are on the plugin page anyway, so they could've probably helped themself if they read them), and then almost never get a reaction.

    What should I as a plugin developer think of that? Did I ask too much, did he lose interest in my plugin and no longer use it, or did he fix the problem already himself? At first I always worried it's 1 or 2, so I rephrased my answer, tried to help in different ways. Now I just assume it's possiblility 3 (fixed already) and ignore the user and bug report. Sometimes I'll skip the lengthy answer and go right to the ignoring, expecting the user to come back and actually be helpful if it does matter to him to get this fixed.

    Posting a bug report is not the same as taking a dump. If you are not willing to be helpful and stick around for at least one day to answer further questions or maybe even test a patched version of the plugin, don't even bother to open a bug report. It will save everybody time and nerves.
     
  28. Offline

    NuclearW

    I personally feel this is what BukkitDev needs the most (and something we've already asked Curse for).

    Once we have that, BukkitDev becomes a simple one-stop-shop for you to see everything new pertaining to your plugins or ones you watch.
     
  29. Offline

    tyzoid

    Hey @NuclearW
    I'm glad that they are working on this.

    Btw:
    Have you seen [Mod edit (NuclearW): Removed link] (log in with your bukkit account)
    Any comments/suggestions?
     
  30. Offline

    NuclearW

    @tyzoid
    I have not until just now.

    I am a bit wary of logging in there with my Bukkit account, especially as it is not Bukkit-controlled. I hope you understand my apprehension (and that I removed the link for now).
     
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