Dear Wesley Wolfe...

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by Creepy_McCreepster, Nov 17, 2014.

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  1. Offline

    pookeythekid

    Exit151 My point was not that they are fully functional and can be transferred to at any moment. Last I checked, there's nothing we regular community members can do crap about as far as a functional server program. There's no CB 1.8, so the best we can do is wait on something like but not limited to Spigot to release a good and/or stable 1.8 build, or if you're one of those who just don't care, their first 1.8 build no matter how buggy it is.

    Anyway, more about why I quoted you, my other point was that the community isn't necessarily taken out. It's just been put into a standstill. If anything, the DMCA (don't go off on why it was issued just because I mention "DMCA") forcibly opened new doors for all of the Minecraft-server-owner community, as well as called upon developers to get innovative, and do it fast, even create new projects such as Sponge.

    And about replacing a Bukkit server: I won't be the one to provide evidence at the moment, but I've heard a ton about Bukkit bridges, and Spigot working perfectly well with Bukkit plugins. Of course, Bukkit plugin developers still have to learn a new API to adjust to Spigot, but there's no choice not to since Bukkit API is no longer useful without CraftBukkit.
     
  2. Offline

    Exit151

    I'll agree that it certainly opened opportunities, I just wish instead of 50 small groups all working on their own projects, we could get some super powers and minds to work together on less projects, more members, that sort of thing. I isolated Sponge above mentioning cuz it runs on top of Forge, but it really has a large group which is partially why it's already so far along despite being such a new project. That said, I also understand everyone has their own ideas and thoughts and ways they want things done, hence the numerous alternatives.

    And the other factor at play is Mojang themselves. Regardless of dinnerbone's pre-DCMA comment about ensuring bukkit see's 1.8, they supposedly were going to release their own API. That SHOULD be priority #1 in camp Mojang, and would solve oodles of problems all in it's own.. But they aren't saying a thing about it. And yeah, there are bridges, and they work (tried some) for the simpler, easy going plugins, but for complex, advanced ones (that I suspect use more powerful API features), they break.
     
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  3. Offline

    Blkscorpion2

    I have to agree with Exit151, Regardless of the reason, for which has not been made clear or "NOT made at all", Wolverness destroyed Bukkit. By the time this mess gets straightened out Bukkit will be so far behind, it will be useless. I'm praying Spigits gets out with not too much of a mess, but we already know some plugins will not work with it on 1.8, unless they are updated by the developers.
     
  4. Offline

    pookeythekid

    Exit151 Yeah, the "Official API" would be a great thing to finally see. But apparently it's been delayed for years. My assumption is that Mojang saw The Bukkit Project and the API they were producing, and saw that it was going superbly well, so they probably thought that their own Official API wasn't really necessary as long as Bukkit was there. But now CraftBukkit is gone, making Bukkit useless (craftbukkit.jar and bukkit.jar to make [Craft]Bukkit terms more specific), but even so the alternatives are rising in power. If Mojang sees the new APIs become successful, their Official API will probably remain just as low of a priority. But anyway, that's my guess. I do believe, though, that they should be on full throttle with getting it done, considering how dang long it's been delayed.

    Blkscorpion2 The Bukkit Project is indeed handicapped, and it will most likely remain there for so long that it will practically be disqualified from the race of server mods (metaphorically speaking). But the good news is that Spigot is getting out without too much of a mess; they re-coded a TON of their program in order to break free of the DMCA. Although you're right, it will take some time for developers to get used to the new API, unless it's actually fairly easy to get adjusted to.
     
  5. Offline

    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

    Exit151 Mojang's control over the project was not known until they revealed it this August. To state otherwise is to spread misinformation. Also, Wolv's contributions are closer to 68% of the codebase than 68 lines of code.
     
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  6. Offline

    Exit151

    You are the one who needs to quit spreading misinformation. http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/7640-bukkit-officially-joins-mojang
    It's on here as well, on this very forum.
     
  7. Offline

    Jeyge

  8. Offline

    asofold

    Exit151 There is no doubt that the contributions made by Wolvereness are massive, even if you judge parts as "not so genuine", because some are "just generic updates" to existing code, all those remain major contributions to the project.
    There has been no official statement about Mojang acquiring rights to the repositories and project back then, though there have been rumors about similar, ever since they joined forces with Curse. That doesn't nullify the oddities, with "sudden change of mind" and EvilSeph knowing "stuff" but not telling - either way there has been a lot of discussion and interaction on that already, and we don't seem to gain much more information on those oddities with time, so i suggest to make more use of search functionality and read stuff. Someone could write a FAQ thoguh :p.
     
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    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

  10. Offline

    Blkscorpion2

  11. Offline

    rcade

    Wolvereness knew about the net.minecraft.server code when he joined the project. He knew about it for the 30 months he contributed, in which 63 of his own commits modified that code.

    I question how valid it is for him to claim after all this time that net.minecraft.server code is a problem.
     
  12. Offline

    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

    Please point out any official communication indicating that Bukkit was controlled by Mojang prior to the August 2014 reveal.
     
  13. Offline

    pookeythekid

    rcade Well whether or not it proves any validity in net.minecraft.server code being the problem, I went to go read over the DMCA notice again and I noticed this text from Vu Bui.
    I recently heard that Mojang had made a statement that they were pretty much okay with CraftBukkit using their code. I don't know when or exactly how this was said; I'm a guy who heard from a guy who could have heard from a guy. I think that if Mojang was totally okay with it, it would give Wolfe a tiny bit more of a stable ground upon which to claim that CraftBukkit violates his copyright.
     
  14. Offline

    Exit151

    Sure.. Let me pull up the payroll stubs of the Bukkit dev team members who were employed, or their contracts with Mojang. Oh, wait.. That's privileged information that people like us don't have access to.
    The bigger question in my mind.. Before the sale, or even thought or a sale to Microsoft, before Wolfe and the DCMA.. 2012 they were hired on to write an "Official API". Where is it? Why isn't it in any of the test releases, and why is it not out now, after this ginormous fiasco? We may all agree or disagree on the DCMA issues and crap we just can't control, but it seems to me that this Official API should be like... Existing?

    And just for kicks, Pookeythekid, you missed another important quote, from these forums from Vu Bui:

    Mojang COO Vu Bui writes in a post at the Bukkit forums The official Minecraft Server software that we have made available is not included in CraftBukkit. Therefore there is no obligation for us to provide the original code or any source code to the Minecraft Server, nor any obligation to authorize its use. Our refusal to make available or authorize the use of the original / source code of the Minecraft Server software cannot therefore be considered to give rise to an infringement of any copyright of Wesley, nor any other person. Wesley’s allegations are therefore wholly unfounded.
     
  15. Offline

    rcade



    Mojang COO Vu Bui posted on these forums that Wolfe "has mischaracterized and misrepresented the position with regard to the Bukkit Project & Mojang. ...

    "Additionally, we believe that Wesley has no right to prevent the continued use of his contributions to the project -- which he gave freely, knowing them to be subject to applicable open source licenses. We believe these licenses continue to bind all those who contributed to the Bukkit Project."

    Link to Bui's post


    The four project leads on Bukkit all knew the project was owned by Mojang. Why aren't you blaming them for not making it clear to everybody that when they were hired by Mojang the project also was sold?
     
  16. Offline

    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

    Because I don't know what contracts, non-disclosure agreements, etc. they agreed to and thus don't know what they were even allowed to disclose.
     
  17. Offline

    pookeythekid

    Well if all that is true, I don't see why Mojang has a part in this legal battle in the first place. If their software isn't being used in CraftBukkit, I'm not sure they have a reason to argue against the DMCA. In fact, what does Mojang's code have anything to do with CraftBukkit if their software isn't a part of CB?

    rcade I've read that full post already. It only seems to say to me that Mojang has chosen their side in the DMCA issue.
     
  18. Offline

    rcade

    We know for a fact that Dinnerbone was allowed to disclose that Mojang owned Bukkit, because he posted this on Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/Dinnerbone/status/502389963606867968

    We also know that Grum was allowed to disclose it:

    https://twitter.com/jeb_/status/502380018216206336

    So if you're mad because some volunteers did not realize Mojang owned Bukkit, you should direct your ire at the Bukkit project leads.
     
  19. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    rcade jeb_ was the first to release the information to the public that Mojang owned Bukkit. Obviously after he'd done that, Dinnerbone would be given permission to talk about them owning it... You also mentioned Grum but linked somebody different.
     
  20. Offline

    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

    You are suggesting that, because he was allowed to disclose it in August, he was always allowed to disclose it. Please stop with the half-baked theories, it's getting old.
     
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  21. Offline

    rcade

    Grum retweeted that Twitter post by Jeb.

    The theory that they were allowed to disclose it in August but not allowed to disclose it earlier is half-baked. If the four project leads were ever under a non-disclosure agreement about the Bukkit sale, we'd know it by now.
     
  22. Offline

    mbaxter ʇıʞʞnq ɐ sɐɥ ı Retired Staff

    How would you? How can you be so sure about these? Were you a part of these negotiations in 2012?
     
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  23. Offline

    rcade

    It would have come to light after Bukkit being owned by Mojang became such a controversy this year.

    There is no reason Mojang would buy Bukkit, hire the four Bukkit leads, tell the public Bukkit was an "official" part of Mojang and then order those leads not to tell people about the sale.

    There is also nothing Mojang would gain by buying Bukkit and keeping it a secret. The company wanted people to know Bukkit's leads had joined the company. They wanted the Minecraft community to think an official modding API was coming.

    I think there's a simple explanation for people not knowing: The announcement of the Bukkit sale in 2012 wasn't worded very well, and it never became an issue because Mojang let the leads keep running things with no interference.
     
  24. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    The free work of volunteers thinking they're working on a community owned project seems like a pretty nice gain.
     
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  25. Offline

    asofold

    Of course there is synergies with all modding, while volunteers not knowing the details about the project-lead is a problematic situation. I still don't see such a clear-cut thing there, considering what the alternative could have meant, given that it's still not clear from whom exactly Mojang has acquired what exactly at which point of time.
     
  26. Offline

    AdamQpzm

  27. Offline

    rcade


    Bukkit is open source. Anybody can distribute it and modify it. Mojang doesn't gain any special rights by owning it, since it still has to abide by the license like anybody else. As a practical matter, the ownership of the project doesn't matter. All Mojang really owns is the domain bukkit.org and the trademark rights to the names Bukkit and CraftBukkit.

    Mojang derives commercial benefit from the modding community Bukkit helped to spawn, but Mojang gets that benefit whether or not it owns the project.

    So I don't see why anyone would care whether Mojang owned Bukkit or the four project leads owned it.
     
  28. Offline

    AdamQpzm

    rcade Because there's a difference when you factor in the fact that Mojang did nothing to help, and even certain things they did made it harder for them.

    If they don't own the project, then it's understandable - even if they benefit from their work, it's not their place to spend their own resources helping out a project they have no relation to. When they do own the project, however, not offering any assistance is a pretty different thing.
     
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  29. Offline

    rcade

    This is a good point. Mojang's track record as owner has been poor. The company should have supported the project volunteers better since the acquisition.
     
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