bukkit perms for all plugins. [Action needed.]

Discussion in 'Bukkit Discussion' started by RustyDagger, Aug 2, 2011.

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  1. Offline

    RustyDagger

    Well as a server owner I have noticed that the uptake on supporting bukkit perms has been very slow.
    I am aware that some plugins are more complex than others and require more work than others. I'm not here to complain about this and that not supporting bukkit perms. My point is that there should be some fixed cut off date for any plugin not supporting bukkit perms. after such date has passed any non compliant plugin is to be removed from the plugin release forum and considered unsuitable for use. I don't like to encourage this kind of idea where plugin dev's are forced to make changes before X time but this is one of those times where I think it is needed to motivate some plugin devs. A lot of them seem to be quite happy using permissions 3 and only supporting it. The superperms bridge don't really help the issue as to hinder it due to it providing an easy way out for plugin devs. Their line of thinking is use the superpermsbridge, not my problem when in fact it really is. Permissions 3 is the single largest stinking heap of Crap I have ever seen on this forums with its badly laid out commands and over complicated setup it has created nightmares for far too many server owners(proof of this is on every page of the topic.) and the sooner the community as a whole moves away from it the better.

    At this time its like not having the RB system all over again its absolute hell trying to find plugins that will get along with each other.

    This is why I am calling on the bukkit team to step in and take some kind of action to resolve this issue in a swift but efficient manner.

    As a final note I am aware that many of you will not like my opinion and I would like to ask you to keep your negative thoughts to you self.
     
  2. Offline

    Drakia

    This will never happen, there is nothing saying we NEED to support anything, if I choose to support Permissions instead of SuperPerms that's my choice because it's MY PLUGIN.
    Don't like it? Go update the ~1,700 plugins out there yourself, then get back to me.
     
    andrewkm likes this.
  3. Offline

    NuclearW

    I'm happy to support Bukkit permissions, as it was just one addition to my boilerplate code, but I don't think requiring it is a good idea.

    We going to require plugins use bukkit persistence next? Etc, slippery slope.
     
    tomsik68 likes this.
  4. Offline

    andrewkm

    I'd like to express my thanks to ALL plugin developers who have not tried to support bukkit perms yet. I love you all. LONG LIVE Permissions 2.7/3.1.6
     
  5. Offline

    Jombi

    Permissions isn't that bad really... well, I guess if you're not lazy and actually take time to learn the plugins you put on your server, then its not so bad.

    Unless ALL of the plugin devs support superperms, then bump it, I'm not switching.
     
  6. Offline

    RustyDagger

    Permissions 3 is bad because I currently have to hand edit 8 files 4 groups files and 4 users files. (4 maps)just to change any thing. I had permissions plus running thank god but its now decided it don't want to promote any world that the player is not in at the time so now im doing the world hop just to promote my users.

    permissionsbukkit is far more stream lined 1 file for simplicity. it only has 1 major flaw as far as i am concerned and that is the way multi world permissions behave but there is a very easy work around just have to deny the permission on the other maps.

    its hardly supporting its using what is provided you don't have to hook into another over complex plugin so your not supporting it just using what bukkit provided iv seen the code to check for a superperm is not that god dam complex. if it was not for the superpermsbridge no1 would be using superperms. in the future don't talk down at me like i'm some Noob iv prob been around minecraft longer than you. I was around when there was no beta only classic and been running my server since the week after smp was released (yer it took me that long to set it up the first time stupid linux....) i don't care for your high and mighty act or your tone.

    I think it is a good idea to require it but only because it would simplify the task of finding plugins. The persistence dose not effect the task of finding plugins that will all work as one and thus should not be required. some plugin dev's have a hard time thinking about any one besides them self and become suborn, and over look the whole picture that is picking plugins for a server. thankfuly most are not like this :D im sure those that are have far less plugin downloads.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2016
  7. Offline

    Drakia

    Erm, that is exactly what supporting it is. You are saying people should be required to use it. I'm saying people can do whatever they please, it's their plugin, not yours, or the Bukkit devs.
    As for my attitude, you deserve it, you are trying to tell hundreds of people how to run/develop thousands of plugins, that's a pretty tall order from somebody who doesn't even make plugins. In essence, you are being a noob, therefore deserve to be spoken to like one, whether you've been around in Minecraft longer than me or not.
     
    andrewkm and cholo71796 like this.
  8. Offline

    cholo71796

    Oh boy, everybody, listen up- this guy sounds important!
     
  9. Offline

    RustyDagger

    whatever wise guy.

    supporting superperms is impossible using it is not. there is nothing to support if your plugin uses superperms
    Support is the wrong term for what needs to be done. uses is the right term. You support permissions 3 because you have to hook into it and go out of your way to maintain it. Superperms You Dont have to hook into its just there like any other bukkit function there is no supporting to be done.

    permissionsbukkit is a standalone plugin that just manages superperms plugin dev's have to do nothing related to it infact there is no reason why you can't create your own superperms manager.

    as for me being a server owner that is no related to my intelligence at all i have in fact made a hmod plugin in my time have made many .net programs for my own use. How ever i need no qualifications to make a post about the situation that is finding a plugin on this forum.

    You may recall that about a month before the RB system was introduced I was requesting a system much like the RB system as it is now. No one liked the RB system at first but you know what it made the community a far better place.
     
    Rytharr likes this.
  10. Offline

    NuclearW

    @RustyDagger

    I understand your logic, and your desire for requiring Bukkit Permissions for all plugins, however, I do find it severely lacking in short-term vs long-term adoption with respect to the community.

    Consider what has been done now, the API has been released and made available to plugin developers such as myself. This is a long-term adoption plan this means that if the API does what it needs to do, and does what it needs to do well, plugin developers will adopt it, and over time supplant hooking directly into Permissions for simple has permission checks. This leaves the power of what permissions system ultimately in the developer, who very rightly so, feels that they retain the control over their plugin.

    What you are asking for, however, is a short-term adoption plan which forces what may be seen as an inadequate solution onto plugin developers. Doing so leaves a very bad taste in the mouth, for lack of a better term, on the developer, who ultimately is the only one who will be supporting their plugin.


    Of course, this is not to discredit the requests of the server administrator, who are ultimately the consumers of the products developers are producing. But, with so many plugins to be updated, and only so many developers to update them, the choice logically has to rest with the developer.

    Also, while I understand your desire to bring it up, your mentioning of the recommended build system and your suggestion that supposedly pre-dated it weighs little to not at all in this discussion, as it is clearly an ethos appeal which only distracts from any sort of logical argument you wish to make.
     
  11. Offline

    aPunch

    Wait, so were you proposing this as a solution open for discussion or are you demanding that the Bukkit devs do this?
     
  12. Offline

    samp20

    Although the bukkit permissions is a great step forward, and I agree that all plugins should support it now; I still think it could do with one fairly important update. Currently the API is designed to allow multiple permissions based plugins to be installed at the same. So for example you could have permissionsBukkit to give players one set of permissions, but also have a phpBB forum bridge plugin to give players more permissions. There's one aspect of this though that has been overlooked slightly imo, and that's what happens when two plugins want to set the same permission.

    I think as part of the API there should be the option to set a permission to be an overriding permission so that any currently set permissions will be replaced with the new one. When the overriding permission is removed then it should revert back to the original. This could be necessary in a situation such as a Jail plugin wanting to remove permissions from the player whilst they're in jail, then revert their permissions back to normal when they're released.
     
  13. Offline

    Drakia

    Look at Mr. Fancy Pants over here, has written a new .net programs in his time, definitely has the qualifications to tell us how to write our plugins /s
    I'm just going to put it bluntly, you're wrong, you DO need qualifications to essentially ORDER that ~1,700 plugins change how they work. You have no control over how anything is done and honestly neither does the Bukkit team in this regard, it is up to the plugin developers to adopt the new system if they so choose.

    Lawlawlawlawlawlawl no.
     
  14. Offline

    Don Redhorse

    honestly atm all the implementations for permissions have severe issues because they where based on one world only.

    Best approach to handle would be ONE file for user accounts and than ONE file for default groups.. AND if needed world files to override the default groups...

    on top of that multigroup support and ingame and offline commands is a must, plus the option to configure / edit the rights also offline in an editior.

    Only with those functions you can easily support a server with a diverse rights structur and multiworld which have different rights for different users.

    all of the existing permissions implementations will do that to a certain extent... but none is really doing it completly.

    requiring to support a specific API would be nice IF that api would be complete and support MOST scenarios.. but it isn't...

    and as long as there is no rights specific help system build in in bukkit together with bukkit permissions it doesn't even make sense to require support for a specific api.

    if the api is good people will use it, if not they will write their own plugin.
     
  15. Offline

    Drakia

  16. Offline

    RustyDagger


    Could not of proved my point much better. thanks

    All i'm asking is that plugin dev's use what has been provided in bukkit to make it the main permissions system as it was intended to be. upside is any new permissions plugin is only going to be a manager for superperms any way so you may as well use it already. if some one was to totaly rewite a whole new system like permissions 3 when there is this very awesome framework in place to make use off then good blody on them but i highly doubt that will happen.

    server owners with simple permissions structures and are good at editing yml are lining up to use permissionsbukkit. because its commands are better than permissions 3. and its files and way it works is far less confusing.

    @Drakia your a moron if you think the bukkit team has little to no say over what happens if they want it done it will be done. if that were not the case bukkit would not be the no one used server mod.

    PS please do continue to argue bumps the topic quite nicely. cheers
     
  17. Offline

    Drakia

    That comic was actually in reference to this "SuperPerms" too, we HAD a standard (The original Permissions API that EVERY PERMISSIONS PLUGIN SUPPORTED), now we have two, great. As for the Bukkit team telling us what to do, they can TRY, but it would lose them a LOT of users if they were to mark every single plugin inactive that chose a different system than their own built in one.

    As for bumping the topic, hey, the more I bump, the more users see how much of an idiotic suggestion you've made ;)
     
  18. Offline

    RustyDagger

    Correction we had 1 that went to crap after niji stopped managing it. you cant deny it permissions 3 commands and file layout are retarded. and im so over seeing this in my console...

    plugin connected to permissions
    plugin connected to permissions

    no need for it at all...
     
  19. Offline

    Drakia

    There's a reason I still used Permissions 2 (And don't go telling me two is unsupported, blah blah. It hasn't been updated in 2 and a half months, and STILL WORKS. This is the DEFINITION of a good plugin). As for "Plugin Connected to Permissions" you're still going to see that, but now more along the lines of "Plugin using SuperPerms", because that's what devs are used to doing.
     
  20. Offline

    RustyDagger

    im not saying that there are not some good plugins around and i love the work the plugin dev's do, just its a real dam mess atm needs cleaning up. simplifying i would say add some thing to the topic titles but that's already an eye sore of info.
     
  21. Offline

    bradgillap

    I switched to permissionsex using the mysql database and Ive never been happier with a permissions plugin.

    The only thing I want to see in the future is a web based control that can poll plugins to find out what permissions they use and then allow me to build groups and permissions using web based form elements with multiworld support. Maybe it'll take so long I'll know enough java, php and mysql to do it myself at some point. lol I draw inspiration from bukkit.. how bout that.

    I think a cutoff date is a good idea. There are hundreds of bukkit plugins and there is very little attempt at curating these plugins beyond throwing them into categories. Example, changelog seems to be required on each authors page but very few plugin authors include the date that each change was made within their comments. Knowing the dates that features were added or bugs were fixed is very important to server admins! I'd also like to see a cutoff date for bukkitcontrib but that's another fork of its own that will become an issue later for us as well.

    If you compare it to a business, this is one of Apples strong points being able to kill things off quickly (sometimes to the dismay of their community). But at the end of a 5 year period they do make a lot of progress through forced obsolescence. We aren't still using hmod right? So why are we still using permissions systems from 2010? How many devs are really opposed to something like this anyway? If it's only the minority that you have to drag kicking and screaming to a new permissions then my opinion is to hell with the minority.

    That's just my opinion though. Obviously if a big developer leaves over it there may be cause for drama. Maybe planning the obsolescence and offering support through IRC to promote developers using a newer permissions system is a less offensive way to implement some forced obsolescence. Of course we want to see devs get all the help they can in planning their plugin updates. Wiki resources, IRC, skype, and maybe even some web conferences would allow developers to stay even sharper than the status quo would suggest with new ideas and vigor.

    Really, the whole developers chant is cliche now but everyone knows that developers who have more resources produce better idea's and faster updates. Sorry to drone on.
     
  22. Offline

    Kaikz

    How about we all remove Permissions support and add only OP support? No more "connected to Permissions"!
     
  23. Offline

    RustyDagger

    @bradgillap nice to see I'm not the only one around here wanting change was starting to think I was a loony Lol. Drakia is carrying on like I'm trying to tell people what to do when I'm not I'm just asking for some change but point in case is that drakia is so stuck up he wont even take suggestions on his plugins intent on acting as if he is better because he has a dev tag

    40 lines of java and a weeks worth of monitoring a forum post and i could be one of them too no big deal so sick of dev's strutting around pretending to be better than server owners.
     
  24. Offline

    Rwembee

    You are telling people what to do. In fact you're trying to have it forced upon them. Devs don't actually need to support any permissons.

    Perms3 should have had a sane top down method: server wide perms, and customize at the world level using -perms and adding. None of this manual copy/manual world add method.

    The built in one looks even worse for config.

    I'm supposed to actually like one of these options?
     
  25. Offline

    Drakia

    You ARE trying to tell people what to do: "My point is that there should be some fixed cut off date for any plugin not supporting bukkit perms. after such date has passed any non compliant plugin is to be removed from the plugin release forum and considered unsuitable for use."
    As for me being stubborn, 90% of it is for lulz (Srsly, you're just showing how dumb you are, it's hilarious), 10% is because I don't really like SuperPerms (Well, didn't as it was first implemented, they've fixed a few things, and provided a tad more docs, that made things a bit better, still not too keen on switching yet).
    As for taking suggestions for my plugins, I code them MAINLY for my server, I ignore a suggestion unless I find it a good idea, people suggesting chat radius, or login messages for iChat are stupid, people suggesting commands for Stargate don't get the point of the plugin. I have a dev tag, yes, but I ignore 90% of suggestions because they are just plain idiotic. I still take suggestions from users into account and add a few of them to my plugins when I have a chance (Metadata for Stargate was one of the more recent once. A complete Permissions overhaul is next in the works for that plugin).

    Get back to me after you've actually CONTRIBUTED to projects, not just sat around and gotten a tag. I've contributed code to many open source projects, not just this one. My plugins have a combined 106,000 unique downloads, I've contributed code to atleast 5 open source projects, I've reverse engineered protocols for two different MMORPGs. I don't think I know things just because I wrote a few hundred-line java plugins, I think I know things because I do. You, on the other hand, don't even know what you're saying ;)

    Also trololololol ^.^
     
  26. Offline

    RustyDagger

    @Drakia first line of what you quoted, I said """there should be""" That's not saying do this NOW.... since when did there should be become do this now. some kind also words implying i am not trying to tell people what to do i am voicing my opinion and giving suggestions, those suggestions you don't like because it would mean you would have to do some coding. some thing your quite intent on doing very little of.

    also you carry on about iv done this and that u flipping hypocrite you were complaining that i was doing that.... congrats you have stooped to my level clearly I have taken you down a peg just made my day.
     
  27. Offline

    Rwembee

    "This is why I am calling on the bukkit team to step in and take some kind of action to resolve this issue in a swift but efficient manner."

    Timeframe is irrelevant to your comments anyways. They still force.
     
  28. Offline

    Drakia

    Actually I was stating that stuff because it's not that I think I'm better than you, it's that I know I'm better than you ;)

    Also I think I'm done here, you've proven to be quite an idiot, and have shown it with almost every reply. Byebye ;)

    Trololololol ^.^
     
  29. Offline

    samp20

    STOP! This thread is just turning into a pointless flame war. All I've seen now is you two picking at each other's words, and not focus on the topic of Superperms at all. I'm keen to hear both sides of this argument, as long as you keep to the topic.
     
  30. Offline

    RustyDagger

    That's not going to happen because Drakia insists on trying to make me look stupid instead of defending his view the reason for that is because his side of the argument cant hold up. the only point he has made is that its 2 much work for dev's

    My main concern is easy of use for new comers and a simple easy to use system for existing users. I think that the cost of plugin dev's doing a little coding is worth while.
     
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