Bukkit gives the developer no freedom.

Discussion in 'BukkitDev Information and Feedback' started by Neilnet, Jun 25, 2014.

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  1. Offline

    Necrodoom

    Bobcat00 although this was in response to Z5T1 argument of over restriction and not helping the community, when, as you agree, these rules are needed and exist to protect the community.
     
  2. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    You contradict yourself, as above you stated this was a policy you had an issue with. Now you state you have no beef with this policy.

    Which is great if BukkitDev was a code repository. However, BukkitDev isn't a code repository and any project you make marks you as the Author of the project itself. BukkitDev has no method to handle forks, thus breaking GPL. No where in the project creation or file upload process requires you to state the code is forked - something code repositories do automatically, retaining the copyright. The burden of work is too large for our team to manually check every single file, find if it is a fork, and if it follows the licensing that GPL requires on top of what we currently have to do.

    If you wish to fork projects and edit them to your needs, you already have existing code repositories you can utilize to fork the project, edit it and distribute it on that site, as those sites are far better suited to that task than BukkitDev.
     
  3. Offline

    Bobcat00

    No, Necrodoom stated that. I didn't. (The "issue" is with Necrodoom's statement that one only needed to be concerned with licensing/copyright, when, in fact, BukkitDev is more restrictive than that.)

    Regarding your other issue, IANAL but the covered work is (in this case) the contents of the .jar file, not the BukkitDev web site, so it doesn't matter what the web site says as far as GPLv3 is concerned. You're conveying verbatim copies, so all you need to do is keep everything intact (just like you do now).

    Shorter version: You don't need to do anything differently regarding GPLv3 requirements if it's a fork.
     
  4. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    I see now, you responded to Necrodoom's question about what policy you had a problem with, with an answer to another question entirely. Must have been a simple mistake in what you quoted, hence the misunderstanding.

    You're still claiming authorship of anything uploaded to that project when you create a project on BukkitDev, so you would definitely need to do something different if it was a fork, regardless of the contents of the file. GPL allows the person who forked the project to redistribute code, it doesn't force websites to be required to host those forks.

    However, since we are both not lawyers, nor is there any specification in any open source license that forces the BukkitDev site to allow forks of GPL projects to be posted there, its a moot point. The rules we have setup protect against people taking other's work changing a line and claiming it as their own, as well as allowing people who want to contribute to a project do so at the original author's discretion. Everyone wins.
     
  5. Offline

    Bobcat00

    What happens when an author hasn't been on for over 2 years, hasn't updated his plugin, and doesn't respond to email inquiries? For that matter, what happens if he's dead? The Bukkit community no longer has that plugin. Doesn't sound like "everybody wins" to me. Sounds like everybody loses. And this will happen more and more often in the future.
     
  6. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Write the same plugin with better code and better ideas. Innovate and improve. This has happened multiple times in the past and yet we keep getting better, more elaborate plugins uploaded to BukkitDev.
     
  7. Offline

    Wilee999

    You guys allowed AsyncWorldEdit onto BukkitDev back when it was there, but you don't allow Bobcat to put that plugin on.
     
  8. Offline

    Bobcat00

    TnT - But you won't let us use the source of an 'abandoned' GPLv3 plugin as a starting point. In one case, I simply had to change 1 character to fix the plugin, but you expect me to rewrite the entire thing from scratch? NFW!

    I did take another 'abandoned' plugin and rewrote it (because it had obsolete code and I wanted the logic to function differently), but uploading it to BukkitDev is more trouble than it's worth.
     
  9. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Nothing was stopping you from forking it and changing it to your heart's desire. You just can't take that fork and upload it to BukkitDev. You are clearly confused about the rights of open source licensing with the guidelines of a utilizing a completely free project hosting website.

    If you have already completely re-coded a plugin from scratch but aren't willing to upload that to BukkitDev, you would never modify any plugin with an open source license and upload it to BukkitDev. You've gone round and round in a discussion white knighting for an ability you don't even want and would never utilize. :confused:
     
  10. Offline

    Bobcat00

    TnT - I'm not confused. I'm just pointing out with the BukkitDev policy, it's certainly not "everybody wins". Author is no longer around, and no one can ever upload a fixed version to BukkitDev for the rest of eternity. It's everybody loses.

    The decision on whether or not to go through the trouble of uploading a plugin depends on the plugin. In one case, it was a broken plugin with 3,000 downloads. It required a 1 character change to fix. Uploading that would help a bunch of people. In the other case, it was a dinky little plugin that I wanted for my server, but the obsolete version on BukkitDev had only 800 downloads. I doubt many people would want it, so it's not worth uploading.

    Anyway, I didn't mean to have this discussion all over again. I was simply making a minor comment about Necrodoom's statement.

    Wilee999 - I have nothing to do with AsyncWorldEdit. I don't even know where to find it. Rumor I heard is that the author(s) didn't like BukkitDev's policies.
     
  11. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Not at all. Chances are someone can come along and implement the same idea with better code. Considering the vast popularity of BukkitDev, where people have been doing just that for years, I haven't seen this "Everyone loses" doom and gloom you're trying to portray happens. When one developer has a good idea for a plugin and abandons it, two more pop up to take its place.

    Chances are there are multiple clones of the same idea on BukkitDev anyway. Don't feel bad for not uploading it, someone else will code the same idea and upload it, or very likely already has.

    Yet you kept debating the same points. If you didn't intend on having the same discussion over again, I am not sure why you proceeded to do exactly that.
     
  12. Offline

    Bobcat00

    TnT - Because you keep replying.
     
  13. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Which implies you want to have this discussion again.
     
  14. Offline

    Bobcat00

    TnT - No, I would just like you to stop posting wrong information.
     
  15. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Nothing I said was wrong. You need to check your facts.
     
  16. Offline

    MCMatters

    he is using the host for testing
     
  17. Offline

    Necrodoom

    MCMatters as he explained him self, thats not why.
     
  18. Offline

    Bobcat00

    TnT - This thread:
    Code:
    while (true);
    
     
  19. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    Now you're just replying for the sake of reading your own words. Keep this post on topic please.
     
  20. Offline

    Europia79


    Heya Necrodoom. I don't understand this. This isn't a rhetorical question. This isn't meant as a "smart-ass" remark either. I really do not understand why the Curse TOS are being enforced on the Bukkit website ?

    Sorry, I doubled checked... I see that my plugin is being hosted on Curse.com also. Is this optional ? Or is it mandatory ? Because I submitted my project to Bukkit, not Curse.

    And I really appreciate the service that Bukkit offers, and I especially appreciate all the volunteers and what they do. So I have no problem at all respecting their wishes (rules).

    I just think it should be more fair... meaning that it should be clearly spelled out (no ambiguity). Because I may have mistakenly added a thankyou to my Host on my project page... not knowing it was against the rules... especially since I see so many other projects doing this.

    Anyways, in the name of fairness and clarity, I humbly suggest that we amend the Project Submission Guidelines

    And hopefully in the future, Bukkit can find a way to make both their sponsor and their users happy. Like adding another side-box specifically for this purpose. Like if you go to any project page, you'll see these side-boxes that don't show up on Curse:
    • Table of Contents
    • Facts
    • Authors
    • Relationships
    • (Sponsor)
    Adding a Sponsor box would make submissions compliant with the Curse TOS (making the Bukkit sponsor happy) while also making developers happy (since so many do it). Thanks!
     
  21. Offline

    Necrodoom

    Europia79 when you make your plugin on dev.bukkit.org, you really put it on curse database. If you visit the main page and visit some of the links you could see these are curse-made, probably (though I'm not 100% sure) since the entire website is hosted by curse. This of course means that bukkit staff do not have to pay the costs for hosting all these plugins for download, and allows you to gain points for download.
     
  22. Offline

    MrInspector

    the point system is pretty good.. i've already redeemed 4 amazon gift cards already.
     
  23. Offline

    ProjectInfinity

    TnT
    So sponsor messages are completely out of the question? What about a reference to YourKit Java Profiler as they kindly ask for in the Open Source license?

    If this is not allowed, then are we not forced to either buy a $499 license or not honor the request from the company that gave you a product worth $499 (that helps improve the quality of the plugins created) for free?
     
  24. Offline

    ZachBora

    You don't create plugins for free when you post them on dbo. You get points which can be exchanged for money.
    Curse was good enough to give this back to developpers. I've made a few hundred dollars thanks to curse.

    You only qualify it as bad because your plugins don't generate many points.
     
  25. Offline

    PandazNWafflez

    ZachBora So, you have 12 plugins, and you have made 'a few hundred dollars'. Assuming that's around $400, and you spend 6 hours working on each plugin as an average, including testing, bugfixing and updates, you have earned Around $3.50 per hour. A high-level freelance programmer working for a big company can earn up to $80-$100 per hour.

    So yes, I'd imagine it qualifies as 'very bad'
     
  26. Offline

    jthort

    PandazNWafflez I don't know about you but we are no professional programmers (at least not most of us) and we don't contribute plugins for the curse points, but to help the bukkit community.
     
  27. Offline

    PandazNWafflez

    jthort I'm not arguing either way as to whether working on Bukkit plugins is worth it from a general point of view - I write plugins and will continue to do so no matter what - but I am just pointing out that the system is very bad.
     
  28. Offline

    TnT Retired Staff

    It saddens me that this point is even being made. Bukkit was founded on the core principle of giving freely back to the community. When Bukkit was founded, Bukkit/CraftBukkit and all plugins were free. The concept of paid plugins barely even existed. Developers would give away their time freely to developing Bukkit/CraftBukkit and the plugins for this platform. Curse points never used to exist at all for developers, and BukkitDev was incredibly popular. Now Curse points aren't enough for people to contribute anymore. Its all about making money, not about contributing to something cool just for the sake of doing it.

    I am not targeting you specifically. This is the general mentality I have seen. It is disappointing.
     
    AdamQpzm, drtshock and MikeA like this.
  29. Offline

    PandazNWafflez

    TnT You have completely misunderstood my point. I am not claiming that 'the points system is bad, therefore it is pointless to make plugins', I am simply stating that 'the points system is bad, but I will continue to make plugins because I enjoy helping people and giving to the community'. I was making plugins before I even knew the points system existed, in fact. I have no problem with there not being rewards, in fact I realise it would be utterly implausible, but I am saying that using the rewards as a sole reason to write plugins isn't justified.
     
  30. Offline

    Bobcat00

    That seems to happen a lot.
     
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