Another Voice

Discussion in 'Staff Goodbyes' started by EdGruberman, Aug 22, 2014.

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    Hi. I'm Ed. You most likely do not know me. So please bear with me as I give you a brief background on my experiences around here. I ran a very small (~50 total, ~10 active), personal CraftBukkit server for friends. I started making simple administrative plugins and slowly learned more about Bukkit. I started to monitor the Bukkit scene more and noticed they had quite a backlog of tickets. I wanted to help and I really enjoyed programming in Java, so I started trying to tackle solutions for various tickets that I felt I could assist with. It wasn't anything major, but I did eventually get to know the core development team more in the process. I got frustrated one day that entity teleportation through portals wasn't working yet but it was in vanilla Minecraft. I set about to fix that. They recognized my efforts and eventually pulled me into their private chat rooms and labelled me as part of the Bleeding team. I got more involved and started helping with Pull Request management. I helped a bit in creating and reviewing the contributing documentation that exists today as I felt I had a great resource of recent, personal experience in learning how to effectively contribute code to the team.

    Then, my personal life turned upside down and I got sidetracked. However, I ended up remaining close personal friends with a lot of the Bukkit team. Over time, I got to witness a lot of the administrative decision making that the general public does not get to see. I think I have some unique insight to how the Bukkit environment actually works and I'd really like to share some more of my thoughts in the light of recent events.

    EvilSeph and the entire Bukkit team (core dev, PRH, admins, etc.) are all dedicated individuals. They pour their personal time into making this tool available for everyone. When EvilSeph was a Mojang employee, he did not work on Bukkit during his work hours. He instead waited until his personal time was available in order to continue to support Bukkit. When Mojang hired the Bukkit team as employees, I expected a unification of the two projects on some level. But based on the knowledge of EvilSeph not working on Bukkit during his paid work hours, I started to understand that Mojang was not actually supporting Bukkit entirely. Sure they let it exist. But ignoring a project is not the same as supporting it. Since my involvement I never once saw Mojang support Bukkit efforts. Dinnerbone had left all the Bukkit related IRC channels. And although Grum remained in the Bukkit IRC channels, he rarely interacted at all.

    At one point, Mojang had even been supplying deobfuscation mappings to Bukkit. Somewhere along the way even that stopped. It's clear to me that Mojang had no interest in supporting Bukkit. They did not care how much effort went into Bukkit or even what happened to Bukkit. The simple action of supplying the mappings would have helped Bukkit tremendously. Grum recently tweeted that he and Dinnerbone never needed mappings to do Bukkit originally. That is correct. And the Bukkit team doesn't NEED them either. Bukkit did multiple updates without mappings. But they sure would have simplified things greatly and reduced the effort the Bukkit team had to put in to updates. They could have also worked with Bukkit to try and organize code in updates that made it easier to add API as appropriate. Any number of actions that would have been fairly trivial on Mojang's part to simplify the effort for Bukkit never occurred. A clear and obvious rift existed between Bukkit and Mojang even to an outsider such as myself.

    Updates got harder. Developers got tired. Replacement developers are not easy to find. People are sure willing to claim they will help, but when it comes down to reality, the personal time required along with the level of skill required is simply a magical combination that doesn't readily exist. I could expand on this concept alone in a dedicated post, but suffice it to say, it is simply not easy to add more developers on demand. After multiple close calls of barely getting an update out and running the team into the ground time and time again, EvilSeph finally hit an impasse. After years of effort and an increasingly difficult update process each time, he saw the writing on the wall that the latest 1.8 update was going to break a team of people that were unpaid. He simply couldn't ask these people to do that to themselves. He pulled the plug.

    Now suddenly Mojang admits to owning Bukkit outright? They suddenly claim they recognize how important Bukkit is and how it absolutely needs to be updated? Suddenly now that all their free workers are being threatened, THAT is when they care? Of course it is. When you work for a huge company making millions on a product off the backs of unpaid people everything is great. Until those people finally stand up for themselves. I find it appalling that Mojang is attempting to paint themselves as the saviors of Bukkit. Maybe I'm too close to the trees to see the forest. But one thing I'm starting to really see clearly is that Mojang is completely disorganized and unmanaged. Their business model is non-existent and purely thrives off the fact they have an immensely popular game that people seem to be willing to spend their time to help Mojang make more money. You can spin this as a free time activity and it's all in good fun. But when I am close enough to the dedicated workers that made Bukkit actually happen and see them breaking themselves to put each update out, I can easily see why EvilSeph honestly thought he was out of options. Mojang shunned EvilSeph. Mojang shunned Bukkit. EvilSeph made the best choice he could for the people working so hard for a company that cared nothing about them; he tried to free them. Jens tweeted that he thought EvilSeph must be bored to stir up all this drama. Bored. If Jens honestly thinks that all a team lead does is sit around all day trying to dream up ways to cause drama, then my perspective of how things are so shoddily run at Mojang is only reinforced. Why didn't Mojang contact EvilSeph directly after the post? Why not try to work things out with him? They are escalating any drama themselves in their own "boredom".

    It's not about the money. It's about the people. EvilSeph honestly cares about them. He's reviewed and hired most of them directly himself. He's personally invested in Bukkit more than anyone. But how do you show people you care about their work? You support them. Why did Mojang never try to get more of the hard workers hired? Why didn't they investigate the Bukkit structure, find out who the key players are, and encourage them to get hired? Why didn't they try to find some way they could help with anything? Why only when faced with it going away do they suddenly now care? It's threatening their bottom line. It's threatening Mojang's money. That's why they care now. Let that sink in some. EvilSeph may have the moniker, but I'm beginning to wonder who is truly evil here. EvilSeph has been instrumental in getting Bukkit to where it is today. To not recognize his efforts and hold it against him for making a decision he felt he had to make for the people working for Bukkit seems a great disservice to him. I hope Mojang finds the opportunity to review what they say publicly and try to respect the efforts the entire Bukkit team has accomplished to date.

    I respect EvilSeph very much. I have disagreed with a lot of decisions he has made over the years. But I recognize and respect that he made those decisions after much research and discussion. None of them were made autonomously, nor were they made lightly. Just because I disagree with a decision does not mean I disrespect him professionally. He had a hard position as the lead of Bukkit to attempt to satisfy a variety of groups and a lot of people. He tried to do his best for the most each time, even if that meant some people might not like him. Being in the decision maker seat is not an easy position. Everyone likes to pretend they'd do it better and hindsight is always easier to say what would have been better. His name has always stood out to me as the great irony of his personality. I am proud to say EvilSeph is a close friend of mine.

    I hope Mojang sincerely appreciates what ALL these people at Bukkit do to further their company and their community. I hope Mojang honestly takes this as a wakeup call to seek out for themselves how they can directly support such a pivotal tool as Bukkit. I hope Mojang takes Bukkit's history into account in their future efforts as well. Mojang at a minimum owes a "Thank you" to Bukkit and in particular to EvilSeph. Why does that seem so hard for them to do?
    Skylandz, simon816, someoneB and 75 others like this.
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    While I can't say that I've had much to do with the Bukkit team over my years of running a server I too was concerned that Mojang had owned the project and certainly from my point of view done little to help it in anyway shape or form.

    I can understand what you are saying here however, Mojang's recent decision to enforce the EULA I believe contradicts this, as I believe that nothing threatens Mojang's profits more than if large innovative or even smaller servers on PC start closing down due to a lack of funds. After all the company has never spent a cent on advertising their own game as it has been done by server owners, players, YouTubers and modders all creating content for each other in a main part thanks to the Bukkit team.

    Although I don't see it happening I'd like to hear Mojang's side of the story behind their purchase of Bukkit. Comments from Grum such as the one i've placed below seem to highlight the entire situation. I certainly don't know if Bukkit asked Mojang for the mappings or not. But I don't see why Mojang could have not offered it to Bukkit if they owned the entire project in the first place. I would have thought it was the least they could to do support this voluntary project.

    A general lack of communication on behalf of Mojang has been present I think in both this situation and regarding the EULA. Where nearly a month later server owners are still waiting for the official attached document outlining out server owners can make money.

    Certainly from EvilSteph's point of view i'm surprised he didn't pack it in earlier.
    DHLF, hintss, justcool393 and 2 others like this.
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    That is deep, real deep.
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    Ed, thank you for all your contributions to the project.
  5. I really appreciate you putting this out here. It's hard for most people, myself included, to make much sense of what has been happening recently. I just think it's a shame how Mojang has practically abandoned Bukkit; a resource that has been adding such an amazing part to the game. Hopefully they will be able to pull this all back together and really work with Bukkit, and possibly other groups, to build Minecraft up into something greater.
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    I've seen you around Ed, thanks for all your time and working on the project.

    For those who are unaware and/or don't trust his statement of being on the PR team. Note his ribbons or whatever they're called.
    Show Spoiler
    hintss likes this.
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    Jade why can't we see them :O
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    Only other members of non-public groups(as well as people with sufficiently high forum permissions) can view the ribbons(tags maybe?).
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    There was someone who editted HTML and they were listed, I take it they're just hidden elements from normal users. I don't know why.
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    I am so sad at reading this post...but getting the bigger picture. I watch my son foreseenparadox put countless hours into coding on just small projects. Thinking about all of the very tired programmers and developers out heart goes out to you. I would personally like to thank each and everyone of you in the efforts you have done for my little G rated server. It has changed over 8000 kids lives. Without the plugins you guys so altruistically distribute , it would not have been as much fun as it has been. I don't know what lies ahead for bukkit or any mulitplayer servers, but I would lie if I said I was not a bit worried right now. I have never charged the kids a dime for having fun, free ranks, builder, was just all about the fun, learning how "not to cuss" and general online safety. I am a grandma of 4 and a mother of 4, and life happens. I wish you all the best in your future endeavors and thank you again. Jacie
  11. Wow, this post has really changed my view on the whole situation, thanks!
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    This really hit me hard
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    Mojang bought Bukkit two years ago. Bukkit has always been an unofficial API that has not been supported by Mojang. Part of the condition of Mojang hiring the developers of Bukkit was that they bought Bukkit too. That is why they own Bukkit, they never promised to maintain it, though.

    The likelihood is that they are working on an in-house server that is better than Bukkit, which is why they hired those developers anyway.
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    The bukkit team negotiated with mojang to go to work for them as individuals as well as giving mojang control/ownership of bukkit. The curse ownership not withstanding mojang negotiated a deal, evilseph negotiated his deal as did the rest of the guys.

    Why evilseph did not negotiate provisions into his contract with mojang about bukkit is a question that no one has asked? Why didn't evilseph negotiate time in his work tine to handle and manage bukkit? Why didn't the guys negotiate some form of support from mojang for bukkit?

    Everyone can have their own opinions about individuals as well as mojang,

    When you transfer assets to companies with out any kind of negotiated terms or from what I have seen any kind of support and then blame the company for not doing what you think they should do while not asking them to do anything. That is kind of unprofessional. Blame mojang for everything, they are the big bad evil incompetent corporation with loads of cash. Hate mojang for everything they have not done. Hate mojang for everything they have done.

    enjoy minecraft cause there is no better game in the world.
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    For those of you who want to make false claims about the Bukkit project acquisition being public knowledge or put a baseless, negative spin on very reasonable complaints, you should show some respect for people who've made great contributions to the community and make your arguments elsewhere. This isn't drivel from a nobody, but a shared feeling among a fair amount of current and former cornerstone members of the community.

    I don't know if Mojang's recent actions have been motivated by greed, but they do need to explain them. They claim that they wanted to keep a hands-off approach on Bukkit, but hijacking the project and villainizing EvilSeph so that they can play hero is anything but—and out of line.

    Even worse, they went on for years letting people contribute to Bukkit, under the illusion that they were contributing to a completely independent project. Many people would be lost on why someone would have a problem with this, but given their background, Mojang's developers should have a pretty good understanding of the open source spirit. For someone doing what would otherwise be well-paid work for free, their cause is their only reward.

    In addition to a "Thank you," Mojang owes a public apology.
    DHLF, lol768, LordDarthBob and 2 others like this.
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    1. I do not have to respect anyone I do not wish to respect. That is part of being an Adult and a sentient being. Respect is earned.
    2. Absent any facts one way or another speculation is just that, speculation. The contention that mojang kept the ownership of bukkit a secret for some nefarious reason is as absent of facts as the claim that the transaction was not a secret.
    3. Mojang does not owe bukkit anything. Mojang could have just kept their twitter shut and bukkit would be dead. How would that benefit the community that people profess to love so much.
    4. Evilseph chose to make a public statement that did not need to be public. Mojang deserves credit for being a benevolent owner that has not interfered with the operation of this project. They do not deserve to be vilified for saving the community that people profess to love so much.
    5. If Mojang was motivated by greed players would be paying a subscription to be able to play the game much like WOW. There would also be no third party servers at all. They would control it all like EA or WOW.
    6. Jjust because there are a number of cornerstone members who feel one way or another does not mean they are right. Opinions and personal perspective do not prove a point or equal a fact.
    7. One persons reasonable complaint is another persons unreasonable complaint by ungrateful whiners.
    8. My arguments are as valid as anyone's and I do not have to make them elsewhere as long as I follow the rules of this forum. I am a member of this community and have as much right to voice my opinions as does anyone.

    I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mojang as well as Jeb, Dinnerbone and Grum for stepping in and saving this project from discontinuation. edited to tone down my rhetoric a little bit.
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    bastion yes, they should be ashamed of themselves, by stopping absolutely volunteer work, made out of hobby, without expecting any money in return.

    Bukkit has been looking for new contributors for YEARS. Anyone who wanted could easily contribute to the source. Mojang has shown that they don't care about the project, until recently.

    You demand the bukkit team to work for you, then demand an apology when they couldn't proceed any more. Seriously?
    Inscrutable, justcool393 and Jozeth like this.
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    I actually do not and never have demanded anyone work for me.

    I do actually find the decision to shut down bukkit with out any public discourse to be rather contentious and divisive. Please take this in the spirit it is intended. If Mojang is wrong then the leadership of bukkit is just as wrong.
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    bastion ah, so the thread by EvilSeph does not exist according to you, yes?
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    To which thread are you referring? The one where he announced that he was shutting bukkit down unilaterally?
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    bastion I'm not in this thread to debate, so I'm going to ignore most of your post, especially since it makes false assumptions about my views.

    If Mojang truly wished to keep a hands-off approach on Bukkit, the decision to close the project would have remained in the community's hands. It would have been up to them to ask us what they could do to help. The only thing shutting down was Bukkit development; and as you can see, starting the project back up is a trivial thing with their assistance.

    That being said, there are capable communities that are willing to continue the work, and I don't doubt that a number of developers would have migrated to them.
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    bastion if you had actually bothered to read, it said that due to the inability of the bukkit team to keep up with the MC updates, bukkit will be put on code freeze, while existing infrastructure will still work.
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    I did actually read it. I got that is was a code freeze at 1.7.10 and that bukkit would remain as it is until curse chose not to support it anymore with resources.

    It was also clear there would be no update to 1.8. It was also pretty clear this was due to some EULA thing that does not even apply to bukkit.

    If bukkit is not going to update to 1.8 it is a dead project.

    I am mostly just annoyed by all the people who keep villifying and bashing mojang for some percieved wrong they have committed when all they did was keep bukkit going for the next update.

    Ignore what you wish. You seem to be good at that.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2016
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    So, basically, public statement, just like you asked, but yet you still complain.
    Looks like you also have to reread the EULA part.

    Seems to be along the lines of "My opinion is valid, yours isn't".

    Your attitude so far doesn't convince anyone, as well as me, to apologise for you.
    Skye likes this.
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    OK, so here is my deal if you really care.

    My opinion is as valid as yours or anyone's, but it is just an opinion. I do not like being told to go somewhere else if I am disagreed with. Disagree with me, that is fine. Please do not tell me I do not have the right to a voice.

    As for this whole affair I find it petty and disturbing. I have clearly in other thread stated this could have been handled with an email to mojang, jeb and dinnerbone, yet is was not.

    The constant bashing of mojang is as ridiculous as my constant bashing of evilseph and the leadership.

    I applaud you and anyone else who spends time helping and supporting the bukkit community. You have even helped me out with some essentials issue in the past. I have helped out on the help forum in the past and will, now that evilseph and tnt are gone, will probably spend more time there.

    I am satisfied that bukkit will be updated and that the mojang api will get done and we will all move on.

    I do not hold any ill will toward anyone, I do not like evilseph but I wish him well, I do not like TNT but I wish him well. Mojang has stepped up as has dinnerbone.

    The anger toward mojang for enforcing the eula is debilitating and does nothing to help the community, I really just wish folks would move on.

    I wish we could all move on from this. evilseph is gone, bukkit will be updated. end of story. Everyone should just quit trying to assign blame and make someone out to be the bad guy.
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    Where on this thread has someone told you to go somewhere else?
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    bastion and yet the one who assigns blame is you. On evilseph.

    And how was he supposed to know mojang would want to pick it up? Mojang didn't mention or provide any sort of help for bukkit, to the point where they didn't even name it.

    Don't try to bash someone then claim "its just an opinion". That just shows you were just flaming without thinking about what you said.

    I'm not even blaming anyone for this. Evilseph, and his team made their choice, mojang took it over, but yet people have to bash anyone and everyone, including the ones that have been doing volunteer work for them for years. Its one of the things that made me quit moderatorship due to the idiots who just can't let their ego go.
    DHLF and obscurehero like this.
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    True, I have assigned blame for this entire unfortunate drama train on a post on the front page signed by evilseph.

    I assign that blame recognizing that all other things aside, with out the initial post, we would all be merrily swimming along in our normal daily routines. Which after this competent and polite exchange with you, I am going to go back to and leave this drama train which I allowed myself to get caught up in behind.

    Thank you for your help in seeing that I have become part of the problem and can now become part of the no longer involved.

    EDIT by Moderator: merged posts, please use the edit button instead of double posting.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2016
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    bastion : I figured he meant "not on this thread" (and he never targeted you either, you simply took it personally)
    Skye likes this.
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    skye and I had a rather long disagreement the other day about the facts surrounding whether mojang kept the deal to own bukkit a secret or not. the entire statement after my post above it was directed at me even though they did not tag me. I took the bait and went on a rant. I have edited that rant slightly to remove some of the more offensive aspects of it. Thanks for caring.
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