A meeting with Mojang Specifications

Discussion in 'Bukkit News' started by EvilSeph, Jan 20, 2011.

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    On Wednesday morning, as I'm sure most of you already know, the Bukkit team had a meeting with Mojang Specifications regarding their popular game, Minecraft. Going into the meeting, we were hoping to tackle the licensing issue right out of the door. Unfortunately, due to some people being unable to make it, it turned out to be a different type of meeting than we had intended.

    With only the developers of Minecraft able to attend, the meeting quickly turned into a technical discussion about what ideas we all had for Minecraft, how modding should work and so on. As we learned a lot from this meeting, we felt we should share some of the points with you. However, please understand that absolutely nothing said in the meeting is set in stone or final and can change at any time.

    So, here's what we learned:
    • Modding support will likely start as server-side only at first, then later is hoping to expand to the client-side
    • Single player is most likely going to be changed to run through a local server (this is also to enable modding)
    • They are hoping to make texture modification easier, without having to modify the client
    • They like what we're doing but need to provide us with a better alternative to the way we're doing it
    Some ideas they're considering:
    • Generic gui support
    • Server -> client communication to allow popping up an interface, etc
    • Being able to tell clients to follow different rules, like physics
    • Giving modders the ability to (make signs) show text
    While we did not have time to address our licensing issues, we believe we can honestly say that this meeting was just the beginning of a long-term relationship with Mojang Specifications. Nonetheless, we're hoping to contact Mojang Specifications specifically about our licensing issues soon.
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    Ok folks, looks like this will be my first post here.

    First things first, great Job Bukkit Team.

    Ok, now to the Topic, you were all talking about countless servers arent working and trolling and flaming around like a bunch of little kiddys, guys, do you realy think Notch doesnt know that his customers arent satisfied?

    I know something about law and i must say, it looks realy realy good, otherwise there werent a meeting in the first place.
    Lets see this in a buisness kind of view Notch:"my customers arent happy, thats crap, i could sell more if they are happy!!" (sorry Notch if you read this, i wasnt making fun of you) Notch knows that the users are calling for plugins and a server that does support them, without the bukkit team he have to write and develope something by himself whitch costs time and money, but the bukkit team and plugin developers doing that for him he can concentrate on finishing the main client and whats best, he didnt have to pay these extra developers.

    Also his "Brainstorming Pool" did expend quite a bit if he needs a few more ideas for minecraft.

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    Finally, someone realizes that. *pats sheylyra on the back* I hope more of you will come to your senses.
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    I realized it the whole time, just couldnt stand the Bullshit here any longer.
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    Bukkit devs: I run a tiny server for some friends. I share the desperate thirst for mods, plugins, new, shiny and better that drives this whole process. I want it released yesterday and I want my pony dammit.

    But I also work in IT. 90% of technical problems are actually people problems, solving those is far harder. Law problems have all the fun of people problems and their own special blend of irritation.

    Please take your time and get the hard stuff (i.e. the relationship between the modding community and Mojang) right, all the technical bits will follow. I'd much rather have to deal with some pain of nightly builds now than have all the accumulated work of plugin authors go up in smoke because they're legally enjoined from distributing them.
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    I agree completely with you. Even though I'm only thirteen, I know about some of these problems.
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    Isn't it a good idea for Mojang to perhaps 'fuse' the Bukkit team with the general modding / server developement team so they could create a stable modding system / platform for servers?

    Unless the Bukkit team wants to remain an independant group...
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    ray landers

    there is a phrase that comes to mind.
    "A whole new kettle of fish."
    while i agree with you, and i would guess most people would agree with this idea, it does bring in a new and completely different set of problems to address
    mainly about money and rights to sell/license.

    so i would guess that it's not too likely, even though if we were willing to wait through the much longer time it would take to get things settled out it would result in a higher quality product in the end.

    time is of the essence and time is money.
    therefore the essence is money.
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    Aye, sorry in my OP I was bugging on people who want chest protection and zone protection.. if you want that, play on classic or SSP. But I do agree that bug/hack abusers need to be stopped. I run a really lean survival style server, people that came over from our classic servers HATED it at first. But then underground building, strategic chest placement and traps, clan groups or players taking turns guarding their forts, all this stuff just started happening and it's become truly awesome. But indeed when people can fly around and drop 2000 blocks of TNT on the map... that kind of sucks, as well as less intrusive things (which I got flamed for asking about protecting) like see through block texture packs...

    Pretty much.. I've found that posting anything, anywhere.. related to Minecraft.. will get you trolled and flamed. You could post "Hi" and within an hour 50 people will tell you that you suck, you should die and why N0tch never intended for "Hi" to be used.
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    You are smart. I went on a server, said something in Spanish (my native language) and got banned. The reason: Notch wanted everyone to speak english.
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    Here's the thing, by "bugging on people" who want different kinds of mods than you do, and saying they should go play SSP just because you don't personally want the same kind of server that they want, you're trolling the thread yourself.

    The thread's about general modding support. What kind of mods are good or bad should be discussed elsewhere.
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    Ha this has nothing to do with telling bukkit what to do. I am glad they are doing what they can to get this stuff working eventually. And I am talking nothing about cuboid or other special mods. All I am speaking about is the mods like worldguard and warping. Being able to mark locations as well as mark areas as protected is the most important features I find on any servers out there. You are reading it all wrong and acting like the crybaby the way you are speaking about it. I am merely stating the obvious that it seems like alot of people felt scared to say until not and most of them are agreeing and even writing posts about it and stating it in podcasts. I know its not just me at all kid and before you say what you think it is, you really should read all my posts about the subject because you are far off!
    --- merged: Jan 26, 2011 9:32 PM ---
    My opinions are backed by the high number of people I talk to and deal with on a daily basis dealing with the game and issues lately. I will stand by my statement overall because I still know it as right and surely even after the time since my last posts its more right than ever. Alot of the users have even got to the point of not playing the game for right now though I know alot are just stopping until the main server mods are back up but regardless im not gonna waste much more of my time trying to change your mind cause I could careless what you think. I am just posting it so my word can be heard and to let everyone know, yes I am just one person saying something which is my opinion but I am backed by atleast the words of 50 - 100 different people that play. The huge group of people I know, I got into the game. And all of them ask me for information about it constantly so I started a blog of info in which I keep in touch with most of them daily and this is just the word around the pool that I am starting to agree with. I am the guy that got most of these people into the game so for them to argue with me obviously at first I am going to be for it and tell them to hold on but like them... I am sick of all the holding on in which notch could have already placed some of the main map protecting options and admin tools directly into the game by now. End of story.
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    Does that mean what I think it means?
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    Again, you expect me to take your word that you're right on something. People lie, it's part of human nature, so your word is meaningless while you're trying to convince me that you're right. 50-100 people, +1 huh? Well, lets look at this logically and mathematically for a second. Minecraft has over 1,000,000 sales right now. Let's assume, for a moment, that you're actually completely telling the truth. Unless I've messed up the math, that's not even close to 10% of the total minecraft population. (because, again, if I'm right, 100,000 is 10%). So even if you are completely telling the truth, you're supposed large number of people who have a problem with it aren't even remotely significant to the overall minecraft population, who are in fact, still playing. And you claim to have set up a blog to stay in touch with these people. If that's true, provide me a link to it. Otherwise, how do I know it exists? basic proof is all you really need to try and win an argument. You still fail, in all respects, to provide some.

    And of course you still know your idea is right, because you fail to acknowledge most of what has been shown to you that says the contrary. Again, part of human nature. We're more receptive to information that reinforces or backs up what we already believe to be true. But, I've taken just about all of the things you've been spouting at me to tell me that I'm, in fact, wrong and that you're somehow right, and proven otherwise. Your 100 people, if your maximum is true (which it very well could be, I won't deny it) is a small, insignificant number out of the total people who have bought and are playing minecraft.
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    I think you would have the right to bitch if the game weren't in beta. I'm sure this will get the typical "quit using beta as an excuse" troll/flame replies, but it's true. We have been running our server with vanilla 1.2 without any mods at all. We don't need Worldguard or Warping or Whitelisting.

    If there was any mistakes made by Notch, I think the biggest was making the beta available to anyone and everyone. The game was being hosted by gaming companies while it was in Alpha. It's just asking for problems.
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    Those things don't even have anything to do with being beta or not, they're exclusively related to server mods... ▬_▬
    Actually, it's more idiotic to be scoffing off every last bug/annoyance/blatant idiocy/poor management and case of Lupus as acceptable because it's beta. I'll admit that the beta stamp does excuse one and another bug, but it's possible to do a much better job out of the whole thing, beta or not.
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    Uh, exactly. Server mods aren't a part of minecraft, they are 3rd party. If Notch announced that they will be fully supporting and adapting server mods, then maybe people would have a right to complain. The post I quoted above was claiming the mods were "needed". They aren't.

    Just because there ARE server mods doesn't mean Notch should be developing them to work perfectly in Beta. If people don't like how the game is being developed, then quit playing.
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    So am I right, then, to assume that you've never raised an objection to absolutely anything? To be honest, I don't really know nor care what discussion I jumped into, (although I probably should :3) I'm just fricking tired of "ITS BETA LOLOLOLwww1234!" being used as a shield for everything people point out.
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    Hi, I'm Andred, and like everyone else in this thread, I think I know exactly what is good for Notch and Bukkit, because my common sense is tingling, and that means I'm right. Do you not agree with my completely correct assessment of the situation? That makes me angry! You know nothing!

    So can we be done fighting over why this will or will not work and just let the Bukkit team get it done?
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    Yes, mom. :<

    If you don't want to take part in the "festivities", don't. Nobody's making you, and as long as people have different opinions, there will be arguments about them.
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    People always have the right to complain about something - but there just happens to be no justification with most of the complaints regarding Minecraft / Notch / etc. Same goes with many other video games. People will complain because they love something, and have strong feelings as to how it "should" be, but in all actuality the creators make the games and we either play them or we don't. Fans from this generation somehow feel they are "entitled" to dictate the development of a game, when it's simply not true. Fans are a result of something appealing to them. Spending your money on a game, regardless of what state the game is in, is casting your vote saying: "I like this." If you do not find a game favorable, simply stop playing. All you "fans" are doing is justifying the normalcy of developers not keeping their customer base informed in fear of outcry. Notch states on his personal blog things like playing video games, taking naps, etc - Things people do every day. For fans to cast such hateful words towards a man who is simply living his life and telling us about it isn't very honorable; in fact it's quite pathetic. Treat Minecraft like the entity it is, and instead focus your efforts on the modding community and life will some how work out in the end. After all, isn't modding the direct result of "fans" adding to an experience they already enjoy, but would like a little bit more out of?
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    ray landers

    in response to an issue brought up about the protection aspects of many of the mods:

    have you considered that those protections were never part of the original game theme?

    perhaps the reason they have not been added in over time is because they are still not part of the theme as seen by the originator of the game?

    just a thought.
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    many people know this. But isn't that the whole point of modding? Adding something new?
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    I know Notch is on holidays, but is there an update to this situation. I suspect that you would have let us know. but I guess I can be a little impatient at times.
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    @sambhur96, Maybe ask this in the correct forum.
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    Blade Swift

    Bukkit is not just a little side-project. Bukkit is attempting to become Minecrafts official plugin handler. Because of this, Bukkit wants to get the legalities out of the way before they finish Bukkit.

    IMO, Bukkit probably won't be released until shortly before Minecraft Final is released. Bukkit will likely be an integrated part of the Minecraft client, and underneath your single player button, there will be a mods & textures button. I imagine you will click on that button and there will be two fields, one listing all of the texture packs in your texture pack folder, and one listing all of the mods in your mod folder. You check boxes for all the mods you wish to run, and choose your texture pack. Now you go back to the game and play.

    The point I am trying to make is that Bukkit should be developing the plugin in a manner where it will be a well-integrated and polished piece of work for Minecraft Final (granted beta versions of Bukkit will almost definitely be released before then for consumption by the general public) and in order the become a well-integrated part of Minecraft Final, Mojang & Bukkit must come to an agreement, such that Mojang may use Bukkit's work in the final version of Minecraft, and Bukkit may legally modify Minecraft (without claiming ownership of the work themselves).

    Because Bukkit will likely want to be an important part of Minecraft Final, before Bukkit gets too far into development, they need to understand exactly what part they will play in Minecraft. Like I said, will there be an easy button right below single player which allows for you to quickly load and unload mods? Or will Bukkit be a separate application you run before/after Minecraft? Which are they going to have to prepare for?

    Imagine you're a business who builds engine parts. You want to build a part for a new car that another company is designing. Before you fully design the part, you get a general idea of what it is going to do, how it is going to enhance the performance of the car, and pitch the idea to the other company. After you get a legal agreement that you will make this part for the other company, then you fine-tune the part and bring it into its final stages so it may become a working piece of that car.

    tl;dr: Derp.
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    Um, I'm pretty sure Bukkit WASN'T trying to cross the line...you make it sound like the Bukkit team is trying to get jobs with mojang...
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    First of all I would like to thank Bukkit team for all their work. I hope you will be able to solve legal issues quickly.

    I hope that you will have good teamwork with Mojang Specifications as Minecraft clearly needs stable and major platform for modding that isn't smashed down on each update.

    However, I don't think that Bukkit should be too official part of Minecraft. Yes - Minecraft should be designed to be well modified and release information about it's new versions before release so that Bukkit would work right after release. But Bukkit should never be influenced by Mojang Specifications or integrated to Minecraft.

    Bukkit should be able to play it a way they want it and competition should be allowed so same information of new versions that Bukkit would get should be publicly available. This is community mod so it should be ran by community alone - fairly.
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    One year later...
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    Yeah this isn't done yet?
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