Rant - Badluckit [Cake inside thread]

Ok I’m just about to break a neck here, before I start this rant I just want to say to that I mean no offence to anyone I do support all their work and I know it’s a little ignorant of me to say this.​

Here I go anyway I guess.​

[Start rant]​

I can understand and even be sympathetic towards the plug-in dev team and everyone else on bukkit but I draw the line now with my patience with multiple groups of people when it comes to getting a bloody official permissions system in place if there working on it now JUST STOP really just stop wind the clock back to hmod does that look complicated to you I mean once u truly understood how to manage it did it not work for you.​

If you have to reply with yes then I suggest u stop attempting to host servers if you can’t eventually work out how to use Hmod then don’t even bother trying with bukkit its at least 1.2x more complicated to setup a permissions system.​

Now before you being to tell me it’s not... let me just say this.. I'm not talking about the complexity of the plug-in themselves to setup that creates so much frustration its the AMOUNT of plug-in authors that feel the need to take on the roll of " I'm going to include a permissions system as well" attitude I'm about to break necks with how fed up I am of waiting for a global permissions system to come along that Everyone can agree on and if not agree on at least be able to refer HOOKS to within their own plug-in.​

So that users such much self and many others can finally open there servers and have faith in the software while doing so, let’s be real about this for a second were up to build what.. 10x something now of craftbukkit and no official permission support, no official help command list.​

I think it’s about time priority got shifted towards completing this so that plug-in authors can stop competing for permission system king and start referring to a system that is in place. Yes I agree with bukkits way of modular is best but I think it’s becoming so modular its actually shooting itself in the foot.​

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We don't need a modular permissions system we need a BASE system everyone can work from to create custom permission systems from, at least then all plug-in permissions can be called from any custom permission system plug-in and not need any other plug-in config bassed permissions included with any other plugins the need to be setup to work around the system we are now dealing with.​

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ONLY THEN will the permissions be global no matter what plug-in you are using they will be supporting the same permission hooks regadless and then one only has to find a permission plugin using these Base hooks that they like and set just that up.​

This would not just reduce work load on plug-in dev but also server owners as were not scratching our heads trying to work out the best or if at all anyway to setup one lot of permissions and have every other plug-in use it and actually see it work with minimal repeat setups.​

I would like to just remind everyone what the goal here again was. it was to create a server wrapper that was not complicated, bulk free, easy to work with.​

Right now we are far far from this dream as it stands right now plug-in dev are arguing over permission systems and support of other systems, and the users are arguing over setup procedure and the constant fluctuation of setup methods.​

I don’t really have much more to add this that would actually be nice so I’m just going to stop it here and finish with a little wish for myself.​

" I Wish I learned to program instead of analyse"​

[End rant]​

I know that would probably piss some people off I respect their hatred towards my comments hell even I see it as brutal and dis respectful but I just could not hold it in any longer, its getting so annoying setting up server with all these plug-in’s ALL doing the same things and none of them like to talk to each other properly.​

Edit2:​

Now I kind of regret bothering to type all of that its not going to help anyone and I’m sorry about that, I probably should have directs my frustration in an official suggestion. I don’t hate any of these people I still think there doing wonderful jobs.​

Edit2.​

I removed my statement from another thread it’s not fair I direct it there.​

P.S "Notch" SHAME on you man, you spare an hour to or even an email response to sign of a project so we can finally get things underway.​

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As promised here you reward for putting up with my ignorence!​

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You're just begging for a tl;dr man

But all in all this is one of the better rants, everybody making their own permissions is a bad thing, but whyat do you expect? Notch does not really care about server plugins as long as new licenses keep coming. Bukkit devs have much work to do on the server not to crash and hMod is dead.

The only thing to do is to just sit tight and wait it out, trying to use available plugins as they come (which is pretty difficult atm).

 

I totally repsect that I really do but there is two sides to that ball one side is my rant the other is as u said stablity now would you not think that an offical list of hooks at least for permissions is going to help stabilize the community and over all the production of work being done to improve bukkit as a whole. That is my end point at the end of day.

I understand the TOS issue effecting an offical Release date for bukkit as a whole but why cant we just get the ball rolling on permissions we have already done so with the wrapper is self and it indeed is working to a standard most can put up with.

Everyone right now is just trying to set up a base server with permissions ect, After we have the permissions its just a wait game for stability.

Maybe I need to agree to just disagree for now as u said. I will keep trying to find a good combination of plugins to get something setup in the meantime.

 

I thought there was always going to be an official permission system. They just haven't got to it yet.

This is also the official Bukkit is in Dev releases and Minecraft is in Beta post.

 

There is still a lot of work to be done to get Bukkit/CraftBukkit ready. Yes, a lot of hooks would be nice to have, as would a lot of bug fixes (Minecart tracks in builds 100+ anyone?)

Still, here is what you need to remember: Bukkit isn't ready. There is no release version out. Bukkit is simply not ready for mass public consumption yet (even though a lot of us have started using it.) The fact that people like you and me now use it to host our servers just means people like you and me need to be fully aware of what Bleeding Edge software means, and what it means to use it.

Bleeding edge software means you still have a lot of features that aren't in place yet. It means you run the risk of it corrupting your world (and possibly raping your wife in the process). It means, no matter what happens in this stage of development, we are to grin and bear it, and along the way suggest features to implement, and bugs to squash. That is different from complaining that the features that have all ready been suggested, and are already on the road map aren't being implemented fast enough.

I can see your point. A build in permissions system would be a benefit to plugin devs. However, many other features and hooks not yet implemented would also be a big benefit to devs.

tl;dr: Complaining that features you want aren't implemented yet in a piece of software not yet released to public is impatient at best, to put it mildly.

 

I did mean it with all due respects in conderation I understand these risks that we take for using it, I do not wish to argue or be a jackass about it it was just something that I thought would have been higher priority given the fact there was ETA or anything on "public consumption" and with Hmod dead it was more of a forced move.

I dont expect it to be perfect there does not even have to be a plugin built by the bukkit team to handle the permissions we just need the hooks Im sure most dev would prefer to put of a couple things they can live with out for a set in stone permission hook system that will finally give control of permissions to the community after all its open source maybe someone should take the challange up and do it.

The end of the day its not my call or my choice how things get done I'm just a little bit .

 

This is exactly what GroupUsers, Permissions, and any other permissions plugins out there are coded to do. Or at least get something out there good enough to get by.

You disparage this effort from volunteers when you dismiss it as "trying to be permission king" or whatever.

EDIT: I white knight devs a lot on this forum. I admit it. That's because, if they get pissed and quit, that's it. It's best to treat them like they're valuable.

 

I have my own opinion about how the Bukkit team tried to win over hMod devs, and in doing so ultimately destroyed hMod. I don't think anyone who saw that situation go down (or who caused that situation to do down as it did) liked what happened - mistakes were made that could not be fixed. I try not to fault anyone specifically - it wasn't intentional, but seeing how it was presented I didn't see it ending in any other way. However, that is the past and we need to worry about the present.

You hit the nail on the head there champ. If you want it now, the only way to get it is to do it yourself, or find someone willing to take up that task for you.

 

There valuble Im not pointing anyone or plugin out yes there are some nice ones comming along but this rant is about the lack of an offical one with HOOKS so others can all turn to these hooks and then we no more problems like we so right now with plugins not listening to the permissions sets and permission sets not controling other plugins functions like you expect a permission set to do.

in that sense yes we do need hooks there so that these exisitng plugins can all work along side the other plugins in a peaceful manner.

What I mean by official groups is being taken the wrong way , I would rather see a API like the bukkit Api for plugins that has the hooks in it for plugin devs to use as a guideline to creating permission plugins.

That is the way everyone can be satisfied as then they can choose any permission plugin they want to use and as long as it follows these guidlines it should work with any plugin for bukkit and those plugins no longer need there own permissions in there configs.

Making an offical plugin imo is just doing what is being done now and its not working very well. It would also add to bulk as ppl will just fork it and then you will have the issue of the fork plugin no longer follows the guildlines and cuases issues problem.

Actually yes I was better of just suggesting that instead of a rant about it I got a little fustrated I'm sorry about that I had to say something and I wrote all of that up it was constructive cristisism so I posted it.

I have given my respects I cant take back what said tho.

 

Bukkit is in development mode. We're stuck in the dilemma that people really shouldn't be using the latest development build (but it's nice they do because we want feedback) and people really shouldn't be using Bukkit as a production system. It's still rough on the edges and being worked on.

Nonetheless, that being said, permissions has been one of our top priorities for a while now. Unfortunately, it's been held up by my and the team's respect for a developer's situation in real life (whether we know of it or not) and I've held off reassigning the work as long as I could. My reasoning for this decision was that there's little point in having more than one developer work on the same thing, wasting peoples' time.

Still, enough time has been given to the developer in question to work on the system, and I'm sure he'd expect me to do what I am now forced to do. The permissions system has been upgraded to Urgent priority and handed off to an active developer with a focus on communication moving forward.

I too am tired of waiting, but we all have lives.

 

For the love of all that is holy, do not make the permissions in a .yml file! I can handle it.. But many people can't.. Too many...

P.S. Great Work on Bukkit. Running the latest dev build now, and almost everything is working well. Excited to see permissions centralized.

 

You did the right thing. I'm sure the developer you're speaking of would agree it was the right thing, not just necessary, but appropriate. No hard feelings, I hope, or anything like that. We all have lives, as you say.

 

I as well thank you for making a decsision, My thoughts are much like the others who have posted regarding the un named person involved, I'm just glad I did not get a warning from you, that was the first thing I thought when I saw the admin badge.

If you still reading this thread I just want to throw this out there.

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Using an API method like is currently being used for general plugin development as it is now via the bukkit.jar actually inspires other developers for bukkit to create unique permissions as they currently do now.

With the only difference being instead of them all comming up with there own way to handle the code they simply refer to what has been provided.

In the longer run this means that developers can create any style of permissions they see fit while still following the set poilcy so to speak.

Other "non permission/group" based plugins need only refernce the API when adding support for groups they can even add support for indvidual permission plugins.

This is were my idea really shines, It wont be an annoyance anymore with groups as it will come down to eaither the plugin developer chooses to support a specifc unique permissions system or not and even if they dont permissions will still work as normal you just wont benfit from anything would not otherwise already be supported by the API.

Better still when users want a global feature for permissions you have the choice to add this straight to the API making it the first universal groups system that will work with any kind of permission setup.

You can have .yml or just plain old Hmod style it wont matter how you choose the layout as long as the feature set exisits in the API plugin commands needs only support the API to make use of permissions.

I think it actually adds to bukkits sense of being modular and bulk free even if you add this an API its still not adding to bulk as anyone can choose to support permissions or not in there plugins.

It just feels like a better then a standard plugin that everyone will eventually fork to add things to.

Edit:

I know my rant touched on this but I just wanted to actually base a reply solely on that matter as it may be of interest, Im looking forward to seeing somthing in place, I'm going to force anyone to do it that way.

 

*claps*

 

Let's also remember that whatever the status/development status/progress of Bukkit, it is still 100x better and 100x times better supported than the official server.